A question - Layers of celtic culture in pre-roman Britain

Apr 2013
11
Australia
So relatively shortly before Roman forays into S.E. Britain, apparently Belgae and Gaulish peoples had established themselves here. The Cantiaci were described as the most civilised, and presumably the Catuvelauni were quite warlike to be able to assert their dominance over this region, and must have had good technology. They minted coins and dwelt in Oppida.

What, though, is the difference between the Belgae and the Gaulish that settled south east Britain? Elsewhere, the belgae were described as more warlike than even the gauls. Does anyone know if any material evidence has been discovered that shows differences between these two cultures? What about Brigantes, Iceni and Votadini? Who were they ethnically and culturally?

Can we assume that the Silures and Ordovices were an older wave which spoke a similar language but lacked technology? In this way would it be safe to say they were very similar to the Brythonic Pictii?
 
May 2010
2,964
Rhondda
So relatively shortly before Roman forays into S.E. Britain, apparently Belgae and Gaulish peoples had established themselves here. The Cantiaci were described as the most civilised, and presumably the Catuvelauni were quite warlike to be able to assert their dominance over this region, and must have had good technology. They minted coins and dwelt in Oppida.

What, though, is the difference between the Belgae and the Gaulish that settled south east Britain? Elsewhere, the belgae were described as more warlike than even the gauls. Does anyone know if any material evidence has been discovered that shows differences between these two cultures? What about Brigantes, Iceni and Votadini? Who were they ethnically and culturally?

Can we assume that the Silures and Ordovices were an older wave which spoke a similar language but lacked technology? In this way would it be safe to say they were very similar to the Brythonic Pictii?
Why do you assume previous 'waves'? Why should we believe Caesar's guesses?
 

chimera

Ad Honorem
Feb 2013
2,449
australia
Irish legend, Gaelic language dispersal and post-Roman Scot movement from Ulster, and the big ships which Caesar saw, indicate some migrations. It's claimed that bronze age Ulster-Scotland had a combined coastal community. There was pressure from east Europe from 6th cent BCE onto the Alpine Celtic spread.
 
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Apr 2013
11
Australia
Thanks for the replies. Iolo, I haven't really assumed anything, merely exploring some ideas. I certainly haven't indicated any invested trust in "the romans", so i guess i dont understand the motives of your question.
 

Toltec

Ad Honorem
Apr 2008
7,923
Hyperborea
Thanks for the replies. Iolo, I haven't really assumed anything, merely exploring some ideas. I certainly haven't indicated any invested trust in "the romans", so i guess i dont understand the motives of your question.
I think Iolo's motives were simply to point out you made a few presumptions in your original post.

a couple of presumptions I noticed were,

So relatively shortly before Roman forays into S.E. Britain, apparently Belgae and Gaulish peoples had established themselves here. .
Belgium an Gallic people establishing themselves in Britain is quite a major claim completely contradicting mainstream accounts of British prehistory so to make such a claim without mention of evidence does seem a bit of a presumption.


Can we assume that the Silures and Ordovices were an older wave
Older waves? Waves of what? Waves of Belgiums and Gallic? Again such an unconventional claim needs explanation and evidence not to be a presumption.



Any ways as for your question I believe I can help.

What, though, is the difference between the Belgae and the Gaulish
Germans were migrating west by the early centuries BC and crossed the Rhine conquering Belgium from the Gauls as part of this movement. What happened to the original Gallic inhabitants is unknown, did they flee west or were they absorbed into the German migrant population, we can only speculate. Here's speculating then, most likely most of the German invaders were male and they killed the majority of the Gallic males marrying the Gallic females. This is likely because Gallic culture in quantities survived across Belgium, towards the north of Belgium it was very Germanic but in the south it seems a bit more Gallic culture survived.
 
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chimera

Ad Honorem
Feb 2013
2,449
australia
But then your replies are inconsistent. If Belgae were anciently present in Britain, then Belgium in early centuries BC is irrelevant.
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
Irish legend, Gaelic language dispersal and post-Roman Scot movement from Ulster, and the big ships which Caesar saw, indicate some migrations. It's claimed that bronze age Ulster-Scotland had a combined coastal community. There was pressure from east Europe from 6th cent BCE onto the Alpine Celtic spread.
I wouldn't give too much on the short-term arrival of steppe warriors in the 7th century.
 

beorna

Ad Honoris
Jan 2010
17,473
-
Belgium an Gallic people establishing themselves in Britain is quite a major claim completely contradicting mainstream accounts of British prehistory so to make such a claim without mention of evidence does seem a bit of a presumption.
What of it is presumption?

Older waves? Waves of what? Waves of Belgiums and Gallic? Again such an unconventional claim needs explanation and evidence not to be a presumption.
Indo-europeans seem to have come to britain since the last millenium BC, celtics of course did hardly arrive before the 5th century. Whether Silures were early celts or indo-europeans or just celtisized later is completely unknown.

Germans were migrating west by the early centuries BC and crossed the Rhine conquering Belgium from the Gauls as part of this movement. What happened to the original Gallic inhabitants is unknown, did they flee west or were they absorbed into the German migrant population, we can only speculate. Here's speculating then, most likely most of the German invaders were male and they killed the majority of the Gallic males marrying the Gallic females. This is likely because Gallic culture in quantities survived across Belgium, towards the north of Belgium it was very Germanic but in the south it seems a bit more Gallic culture survived.
Belgae are as far as we know celtic speaking. Those, who are named by cesar as Germani were perhaps as well not germanic speaking. So to claim, that Germanic, especially not germans, conquered belgium is wrong. The only civitas there, which can match your claim are the Atuatuci, which shall be remnants of the Cimbri.
Why Belgae moved to Britain is widely unknown. Maybe the migration of Cimbri brought some unrest, maybe the Roman conquest limited movements to the south or the powerful Averni and Aedui. We don't know.