A Russo-Persian War in the late 1810s

Futurist

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May 2014
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#1
What if, coming fresh off its victory in the Napoleonic Wars, Russia would have invaded Persia sometime in the late 1810s with the goal of conquering it so that Russia would acquire access to the Indian Ocean? How would such a war have turned out? Also, how would the other Great Powers have reacted to such a Russian move?

In addition, if Russia would have successfully conquered Persia, how would Persia have subsequently developed under Russian rule?
 

sparky

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Jan 2017
4,782
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#2
Why ??
access to the warm seas is a bit of a British obsession . the Russian empire was concerned with the river basin flowing north
another concern was to eliminate pesky raiding tribesmen , which they did in central Asia during the 19th century
Persia didn't rate on both accounts ,

They were much more interested in having some control over Manchuria
 

Futurist

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May 2014
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SoCal
#3
Why ??
access to the warm seas is a bit of a British obsession . the Russian empire was concerned with the river basin flowing north
What river basin was that?

another concern was to eliminate pesky raiding tribesmen , which they did in central Asia during the 19th century
Persia didn't rate on both accounts ,
Was it necessary to expand so far south in Central Asia, though?

They were much more interested in having some control over Manchuria
Yes--in the second half of the 19th century.
 

sparky

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Jan 2017
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Sydney
#4
the Syr ans amu Daria with the chain of Oasis around
in this region if one control the water one control the land and the people

You know the story , taking control of one area inexorably lead to a new set of problems with new neighbors
that's the common fate of Empire , being sucked deeper with each conquest
there were some serious misgiving in going so deep among truly alien people
the response was to set up Cossack settlements , those perennial border guards of the Empire
it meant "that's it , that's our border now "
 
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pugsville

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Oct 2010
9,340
#5
What if, coming fresh off its victory in the Napoleonic Wars, Russia would have invaded Persia sometime in the late 1810s with the goal of conquering it so that Russia would acquire access to the Indian Ocean? How would such a war have turned out? Also, how would the other Great Powers have reacted to such a Russian move?

In addition, if Russia would have successfully conquered Persia, how would Persia have subsequently developed under Russian rule?
The Persian army was not capable of standing up to the Russian army in the open.

The Russian Army was incapable of logistically supported the conquest of Persia.

I've read a few books on Ottom Turkish and Ottoman Persian wars in this period. neither the Ottomans or Persains had much chance of standing up to an European army in the open, almost no matter what the odds. They often hadlareg Numerical advnatge, 5-1 or more (astounding by any standard) . Not even close reading the accounts.

But these regions were also veyr hard to camapign in, and Russian losses from non combat casualties could be high. And teh Russians did not really have the organization until about 1810-12. The Russians were very heavily stretched economicly in the post Napoleonic war period the immense efforts of Alexander against Napoleon left a lot of debt.

The Indian Ocean overland is not that attractive. Any ships would have to be built there, just no logistical support from Russia proper, no easy communications or trade. Totally different situation compared to Constantinople where it would have been very easy access to comunictaion and trade to Russia proper.

Alexander had made Russia deeply unpopular in the wake of the annexation of Poland. The British no doubt would have over reacted to any conceivable threat to India (no matter how actually unrealistic) There is some chance of an early Crimenia war, depending on exacxtly when and previalling doemestic poltical currents in France and Britain.

Russo-Persian Wars - Wikipedia

"Therefore, the Russians were forced to rely on superior technology, training, and strategy in the face of an overwhelming disparity in numbers. Some estimates put the Persian numerical advantage at five to one."
Russo-Persian War (1804–13) - Wikipedia


Russo-Persian War (1826–1828) - Wikipedia
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
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SoCal
#6
The Persian army was not capable of standing up to the Russian army in the open.

The Russian Army was incapable of logistically supported the conquest of Persia.

I've read a few books on Ottom Turkish and Ottoman Persian wars in this period. neither the Ottomans or Persains had much chance of standing up to an European army in the open, almost no matter what the odds. They often hadlareg Numerical advnatge, 5-1 or more (astounding by any standard) . Not even close reading the accounts.

But these regions were also veyr hard to camapign in, and Russian losses from non combat casualties could be high. And teh Russians did not really have the organization until about 1810-12. The Russians were very heavily stretched economicly in the post Napoleonic war period the immense efforts of Alexander against Napoleon left a lot of debt.
Would the 1820s, 1830s, or 1840s be a better time for a Russian invasion of Persia?

Also, what about having Russia limit its expansionist ambitions in Persia to the non-Persian-majority northern parts of Persia:



The Indian Ocean overland is not that attractive. Any ships would have to be built there, just no logistical support from Russia proper, no easy communications or trade. Totally different situation compared to Constantinople where it would have been very easy access to comunictaion and trade to Russia proper.
When did the first railroad connecting Russia to the Indian Ocean come about? Do you know?

Alexander had made Russia deeply unpopular in the wake of the annexation of Poland. The British no doubt would have over reacted to any conceivable threat to India (no matter how actually unrealistic) There is some chance of an early Crimenia war, depending on exacxtly when and previalling doemestic poltical currents in France and Britain.

Russo-Persian Wars - Wikipedia

"Therefore, the Russians were forced to rely on superior technology, training, and strategy in the face of an overwhelming disparity in numbers. Some estimates put the Persian numerical advantage at five to one."
Russo-Persian War (1804–13) - Wikipedia

Russo-Persian War (1826–1828) - Wikipedia
Wouldn't that have been an argument against annexing Poland in the first place, though?
 
Apr 2017
1,484
U.S.A.
#8
@Visigoth Panzer Do you have any thoughts on this scenario/question of mine?
Well, there was a Russian-Persian war from 1826-28. In which Persia was goaded by Britain to regain lost territory from the earlier 1804-13 war. They lost badly and Russia gained the north Caucasus. So if the war happened in the late 1810's it would probably be pretty much the same, only the cause being different (if Russia started it).
Now if Russia invaded with the goal of total annexation of Persia, this gets more complicated. In the 1826-28 war Russia completely defeated Persia, even temporarily occupying Tabriz. If they kept pushing they probably could have conquered the whole country but logistically it would have been very difficult to maintain the supply lines across the whole area. This would necessitate the conquest of central asia to link up with the newly conquered Persia.
More importantly the other regional powers wouldn't sit idle while Russia devours huge chunks of territory. Britain already considered Russia its main rival and would work to prevent this annexation. Either by demanding Russia pull back (could be an earlier version of the Crimean war, only over the collapse of Persia), grabbing parts of Persia for themselves (Baluchistan and south), or by militarily intervening through proxies (ottoman empire and others).
 
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sparky

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Jan 2017
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Sydney
#9
The whole idea is insane , Russia never had any intention of expanding over Persia ,
it's completely outside it's communication lines , the advance to the warm seas is a British meme ,
Russia is a land power , it value land access and control
as for Poland , there doesn't seems to be any problem with Austria or Prussia gobbling parts of it
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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SoCal
#10
The whole idea is insane , Russia never had any intention of expanding over Persia ,
it's completely outside it's communication lines , the advance to the warm seas is a British meme ,
Russia is a land power , it value land access and control
Persia has a lot of nice coastline in the north and south, no?

as for Poland , there doesn't seems to be any problem with Austria or Prussia gobbling parts of it
Actually, I oppose it when those two countries rule over Polonkadonks as well.