A world without Islam?

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,603
Florania
Islam started as a cult and remains a cult, in spite of the size.
Imagine the development of world history without Islam.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,217
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Given the nature of this question, it is better off in the Chamber. I can imagine what direction this is going to go in.
 

ameteurhistorian

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
2,512
USA
I dislike being "that guy" since I know that many people here have a bias against Islam for various reasons, but we owe a lot to the Islamic world. Cult or not, Islamic nations made immense advancements in science, law, mathematics, religion, and culture. The Islamic/Arabic Golden Age was a very prosperous and progressive time period. There was a point in history where cities like Muslim Cordoba, Baghdad, Damascus, Delhi, Cairo, Timbuktu, Merrakech, Istanbul, and Esfahan where centers of learning, administration, science, and art up until the beginning of the European Imperial Age when most European cities were relatively underdeveloped in comparison, though that does get exaggerated. I understand in light of state of the Islamic world as of now why this question seems worth asking, but it doesn't seem to take in context of the greater part of Islamic history. Without Islam, or more accurately, the socio-cultural and political framework its empires and states made, the world would definitely be a different places without algebra, lenses, hospitals, surgical innovations, coffee, the guitar, and so on.
 
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Oct 2015
1,195
California
I dislike being "that guy" since I know that many people here have a bias against Islam for various reasons, but we owe a lot to the Islamic world. Cult or not, Islamic nations made immense advancements in science, law, mathematics, religion, and culture. The Islamic/Arabic Golden Age was a very prosperous and progressive time period. There was a point in history where cities like Muslim Cordoba, Baghdad, Damascus, Delhi, Cairo, Timbuktu, Merrakech, Istanbul, and Esfahan where centers of learning, administration, science, and art up until the beginning of the European Imperial Age when most European cities were relatively underdeveloped in comparison, though that does get exaggerated. I understand in light of state of the Islamic world as of now why this question seems worth asking, but it doesn't seem to take in context of the greater part of Islamic history. Without Islam, or more accurately, the socio-cultural and political framework its empires and states made, the world would definitely be a different places without algebra, lenses, hospitals, surgical innovations, coffee, the guitar, and so on.
The intellectual collapse of Islam:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl1nJC3lvFs

I agree the world would be so much poorer today without the intellectual discoveries that came out of the Islamic world during their golden age.

This is especially true when it comes to medicine. Ibn Sina's Canon of Medicine published in 1025 was used as the standard medical text book in Europe until the 18th century.
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,803
I dislike being "that guy" since I know that many people here have a bias against Islam for various reasons, but we owe a lot to the Islamic world. Cult or not, Islamic nations made immense advancements in science, law, mathematics, religion, and culture. The Islamic/Arabic Golden Age was a very prosperous and progressive time period. There was a point in history where cities like Muslim Cordoba, Baghdad, Damascus, Delhi, Cairo, Timbuktu, Merrakech, Istanbul, and Esfahan where centers of learning, administration, science, and art up until the beginning of the European Imperial Age when most European cities were relatively underdeveloped in comparison, though that does get exaggerated. I understand in light of state of the Islamic world as of now why this question seems worth asking, but it doesn't seem to take in context of the greater part of Islamic history. Without Islam, or more accurately, the socio-cultural and political framework its empires and states made, the world would definitely be a different places without algebra, lenses, hospitals, surgical innovations, coffee, the guitar, and so on.
So first of all, this has been much exagerated... This so called Islamic Golden Age lasted what, maybe a century while Islam was expanding and acquiring territory and knowledge mostly by force.... The next 1000 years there was stagnation and decadence. For the past 300 years no invention of note has come out of Islamic countries...... who collectively have about 1% of nobel prizes, most of them not in science (literature and peace)

Secondly why is any of this owed to "Islam" ?... We would not have "coffee" without Islam, really ? Really ?

And most of the cities you name were great even before Islam.... Istambul ? Remember this little place called Constantinople ?
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,803
Islam started as a cult and remains a cult, in spite of the size.
Imagine the development of world history without Islam.
Actually Islam was irrelevant for many centuries...... One would have to prove that another belief system would have made the history of the middle east and north africa significantly different
 

ameteurhistorian

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
2,512
USA
So first of all, this has been much exagerated... This so called Islamic Golden Age lasted what, maybe a century while Islam was expanding and acquiring territory and knowledge mostly by force.... The next 1000 years there was stagnation and decadence. For the past 300 years no invention of note has come out of Islamic countries...... who collectively have about 1% of nobel prizes, most of them not in science (literature and peace)
Most historians place the Islamic Golden Age from the 8th to 13th century, so it was definitely more than a hundred years. Then you have to consider the innovations made during the Gunpowder Empires later. As I said, I do think some aspects are under-exaggerated, but this is like trying to belabor the achievements of the Renaissance or the Han-Ming Dynasties in China. Whether if they are a result of Islam or not, the Islamic/Arabic Golden Age did have a massive impact.

Many of the Nobel Peace Prize Winners are majority white or Jewish. Does that mean all innovations in human history come from those peoples? Obviously not. I appreciate the concept on what the NPP is, but it's not a good measurement of human achievement.

Secondly why is any of this owed to "Islam" ?... We would not have "coffee" without Islam, really ? Really ?
It's not owned to Islam, but the social, cultural, and political framework that Muslim nations had. The Abbasid Caliphate, Caliphate of Cordoba, and the Mughals essentially had all the collected knowledge of Greece, Rome, Persia, Babylon, Egypt, and India, along with their trade and resources. They were able to gather intellectual and human capital from various parts of the world and had the wealth and time for governments to invest in the arts and sciences. Most people in most medieval Islamic states were more literate on average compared to Europe, that's a simple fact. With all those attributes together you have the potential and the results of progress.

And most of the cities you name were great even before Islam.... Istambul ? Remember this little place called Constantinople ?
And? That doesn't change that they were still socially, culturally, and intellectually significant, if not more so, during Islamic occupation as I explained above. Take Cordoba for example. It wasn't anything noteworthy under the Romans and Visigoths until the Umayyads made it into one of the largest and most literate cities in the world. Same is true for Baghdad and Esfahan. Muslim states were the most urbanized regions of the Near East, Africa, and Europe for most of pre-modern history, and urbanization tends to lend itself to innovation and culture.
 
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Apr 2014
1,067
Malaysia
I totally appreciate everything the muslims in the past had done. People all over the world built great cities and nurtured great intellectuals. And muslim leaders had shown unexpected mercy towards captives in many wars.

But though islam has lead to less atrocities than christianity, its old-testament style scripture makes islam unfit to adapt the modern secular world; a world where people no longer see their ethnicity and religion superior; a world where violence of any kind is somewhat condemned. In the past, yes, that ideology did well among all the traditional cultures and traditions of the past, but the world changed then; and that was the end of islam as the superior culture.

An inferior culture, but a perfect one? The success of salafism is always so fascinating to me.

I believe the intention of the poster is: If the world was without islam then, and the byzantines and sassanids not destroyed by a mysterious force pouring out of the desert, would the world witness a slower progress and a reduced legacy of achievements?
 
Jan 2016
1,139
Victoria, Canada
But though Islam has lead to less atrocities than Christianity,
what? I would beg to differ! what "atrocities" has Christianity led to? Islam killed millions during its expansions, and subjugated many people and religions along the way. Without the Islamic conquests the ere might have retaken the old territories of the roman empire, stopping the degradation of society during the early and high middle ages. Islam also lead to a drop in quality of life of many of its conquered subjects (specifically women in the eastern roman empire). Islam also led to the final burning of the library of alexandria. What has Christianity done that compares? this isn't even mentioning the uber-conservative values that led to most of the middle east and north africa living in the middle ages to this day.
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,173
Lisbon, Portugal
what? I would beg to differ! what "atrocities" has Christianity led to?
Are you being serious right now, or you're being Ironic?

Islam killed millions during its expansions, and subjugated many people and religions along the way.
Yeah...Western Christendom never done that..sure...

Without the Islamic conquests the ere might have retaken the old territories of the roman empire, stopping the degradation of society during the early and high middle ages.
The entire academia disagrees with that assessment. Besides, the entire region of the Eastern Roman Empire and the Middle East and North Africa were in total degradation and decadence years before the advent of Islam.

That's exactly the main reason of why a bunch of Arab Bedouins could so easily invade and conquer most of the East Roman territory in the Middle East and North Africa.

Islam also lead to a drop in quality of life of many of its conquered subjects (specifically women in the eastern roman empire). Islam also led to the final burning of the library of alexandria.
Women during the Eastern Roman empire and the Persian Empire had almost the quality of life as a Muslim women. Even the Hijab already existed in those societies before Islam.

What has Christianity done that compares?
I'm honestly believing that you'r not serious with that question...

this isn't even mentioning the uber-conservative values that led to most of the middle east and north africa living in the middle ages to this day.
Look, Islam is uber-conservative nowadays if you compare it with 21st century Western liberal ideals. And that's why your analysis is quite wrong.

But during the 7th century Islam was not AT ALL the most uber-conservative, or even the most violent religion or political entity there was, specifically in the Middle East. Almost any single value that Islam preached, its political organization, its philosophy and its ideology are all copy-cats from other religions and political entities that already existed and flourished in the Middle East. yes, its religious message was more definitive and straightforward, but it was not an alien religion in the region.
 
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