Achilles

Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Both wars are caused when a handsome youth runs off with a king's woman.


Does Deirdre and Cu Chullainn have any connections? The battle that led to CuChullain's death was not because of Queen Medb's desire for a bull that did not belong to her?

I have never read anything to link the battle that Cu Chulainn died with the tragedy of Deirdre
 
Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Achilles only fought a pissy river god. Diomedes fought two major gods, Ares and Aphrodite, and defeated them both. Achilles and Diomedes prevailed because they were skilled fighters, not because they had divine superpowers.

Compared to Diomedes, Achilles was a preppy, whiny, crybaby. Diomedes was one of the seven warriors who fought alone against the heavily fortified city of Thebes and tore down its walls. Diomedes was a suitor for Helen before Menelaus married her. Diomedes brought 80 ships to Troy, second only to Agamemnon. He wore a suit of armour that was crafted by Hephaistios himself. He snuck into Troy and stole the Palladium - Troy's most holy relic. Diomedes killed the king of Thrace in his own palace and stole his horses. On the Trojan battlefield, Diomedes killed around thirty named Trojans in single combat along with scores of lesser fighters. In addition, he defeated Hektor. He defeated Aias Telamon. He defeated Aeneas and would have killed him except for Aphrodite getting in the way and telling him to stop. He told the god to bugger off and attacked her instead, cutting her arm and causing her to run away. He then fought Ares, the God of War himself, sending him running home to Zeus to complain about being beaten.

If you want a serious badass in the Iliad then Diomedes is it. While Achilles was pouting in his tent like a schoolgirl because Agamemnon took his bedwarmer, Diomedes was adding scores of Trojans to the bodycount on the battlefield.
Diomedes was fabulous, but be fair, Athena helped Diomedes attack Ares and saved him from certain death by the spear of Ares, Aphrodite did not react against Diomedes, and Diomedes was intimidated by Apollo

Diomedes was betrayed by his wife later, I think that was the revenge of Aphrodite
 

tornada

Ad Honoris
Mar 2013
15,379
India
Achilles only fought a pissy river god. Diomedes fought two major gods, Ares and Aphrodite, and defeated them both. Achilles and Diomedes prevailed because they were skilled fighters, not because they had divine superpowers.

Compared to Diomedes, Achilles was a preppy, whiny, crybaby. Diomedes was one of the seven warriors who fought alone against the heavily fortified city of Thebes and tore down its walls. Diomedes was a suitor for Helen before Menelaus married her. Diomedes brought 80 ships to Troy, second only to Agamemnon. He wore a suit of armour that was crafted by Hephaistios himself. He snuck into Troy and stole the Palladium - Troy's most holy relic. Diomedes killed the king of Thrace in his own palace and stole his horses. On the Trojan battlefield, Diomedes killed around thirty named Trojans in single combat along with scores of lesser fighters. In addition, he defeated Hektor. He defeated Aias Telamon. He defeated Aeneas and would have killed him except for Aphrodite getting in the way and telling him to stop. He told the god to bugger off and attacked her instead, cutting her arm and causing her to run away. He then fought Ares, the God of War himself, sending him running home to Zeus to complain about being beaten.

If you want a serious badass in the Iliad then Diomedes is it. While Achilles was pouting in his tent like a schoolgirl because Agamemnon took his bedwarmer, Diomedes was adding scores of Trojans to the bodycount on the battlefield.
Diomedes was fabulous, but be fair, Athena helped Diomedes attack Ares and saved him from certain death by the spear of Ares, Aphrodite did not react against Diomedes, and Diomedes was intimidated by Apollo

Diomedes was betrayed by his wife later, I think that was the revenge of Aphrodite

Out of curiosity, how often does Achilles have major deities helping him? I know his armour is of Hephaestus, but do any of the gods intervene in his favour at any time?
 
Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Out of curiosity, how often does Achilles have major deities helping him? I know his armour is of Hephaestus, but do any of the gods intervene in his favour at any time?


I remember 2 interventions

Hefestus preventing the Scamander from drowning Achilles, who begged for divine intervention "Father Zeus, how is it that no one of the gods taketh it upon him in my pitiless plight to save me from out the River! thereafter let come upon me what may. None other of the heavenly gods do I blame so much, but only my dear mother, that beguiled me with false words, saying that beneath the wall of the mail-clad Trojans I should perish by the swift missiles of Apollo. Would that Hector had slain me, the best of the men bred here; then had a brave man been the slayer, and a brave man had he slain. But now by a miserable death was it appointed me to be cut off, pent in the great river, like a swine-herd boy whom a torrent sweepeth away as he maketh essay to cross it in winter."


Athens returned Achilles to the spear he had thrown at Hector and wronged the target, she returned the spear in a way Hector did not notice

In compensation, Apollo, who hated Achilles, guided the arrow of Paris that killed the son of Peleus
 
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Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Did he? As far as I can tell, only Roman fanboy fiction says this, not the original Greek myths.
Although a complete version of the Aethiopis has not yet come to us, Hector's prophecy for Achilles in the Iliad cooperates with this hypothesis

"Verily I know thee well, and forbode what shall be, neither was it to be that I should persuade thee; of a truth the heart in thy breast is of iron. Bethink thee now lest haply I bring the wrath of the gods upon thee on the day when Paris and Phoebus Apollo shall slay thee, valorous though thou art, at the Scaean gate. "
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,855
Portugal
Although a complete version of the Aethiopis has not yet come to us, Hector's prophecy for Achilles in the Iliad cooperates with this hypothesis

"Verily I know thee well, and forbode what shall be, neither was it to be that I should persuade thee; of a truth the heart in thy breast is of iron. Bethink thee now lest haply I bring the wrath of the gods upon thee on the day when Paris and Phoebus Apollo shall slay thee, valorous though thou art, at the Scaean gate. "
Do you have the book (chapter) and verse(s) of the part of the Iliad quoted? It would be easier to find.

As for the “Aethiopis” we can’t comment much, because we don’t have much. But the arrows weren’t mentioned in the fragments:

Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns, and Homerica,
 
Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Do you have the book (chapter) and verse(s) of the part of the Iliad quoted? It would be easier to find.

As for the “Aethiopis” we can’t comment much, because we don’t have much. But the arrows weren’t mentioned in the fragments:

Hesiod, the Homeric Hymns, and Homerica,
Here, Book 22 verse 355
Homer, Iliad, Book 22

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Paris was not an archer, just like Apollo? This still does not prove Achilles died because of an arrow, but it seems to me the most probable, if Paris had won Achilles in fair combat, he would not be a coward.

And what I wanted to say to Dan was Apollo's involvement in Achilles' death.
 
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