Achilles

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,398
Portugal
Thanks, I needed a contextualization, and I prefer to read the Portuguese version to the English one, even if sometimes there can be a small difference in the verse number.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Paris was not an archer, just like Apollo? This still does not prove Achilles died because of an arrow, but it seems to me the most probable, if Paris had won Achilles in combat, he would not be a coward.

And what I wanted to say to Dan was Apollo's involvement in Achilles' death.
I will not correct you. I don’t know if you are right or wrong. It has been some years that I read the Iliad, and can’t recall or didn’t analysed some details, so I will put a couple of questions here:

Does Paris fights always as an archer?
In the Odyssey, Odysseus uses the bow (and Telemachus picks it once!?), can’t recall about its use and by him or others in the Iliad.
Does “Homer” calls or implies that Paris is a coward?

And what I wanted to say to Dan was Apollo's involvement in Achilles' death.
I confess that I was thinking about his Achilles heel being hit by an arrow, and not Apollo intervention. Sorry!
 
Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Thanks, I needed a contextualization, and I prefer to read the Portuguese version to the English one, even if sometimes there can be a small difference in the verse number.



I will not correct you. I don’t know if you are right or wrong. It has been some years that I read the Iliad, and can’t recall or didn’t analysed some details, so I will put a couple of questions here:

Does Paris fights always as an archer?
In the Odyssey, Odysseus uses the bow (and Telemachus picks it once!?), can’t recall about its use and by him or others in the Iliad.
Does “Homer” calls or implies that Paris is a coward?



I confess that I was thinking about his Achilles heel being hit by an arrow, and not Apollo intervention. Sorry!
I just found this: Paris hits the foot of Diomedes with an arrow (Book 11, verse 377) he was not a dumb with a bow in his hand

Paris's cowardice is notorious, Hector has to press him to face Menelaus (Book 3, verses 38-57)

On Achilles' death, Hector's prophecy associated with Paris's ability with the bow and his notorious cowardice help to understand that the son of Peleus was killed by an arrow and with the help of Apollo, this can not be proved, but what the other hypothesis? That Hector's prophecy was wrong? That Paris killed Achilles in a sword duel? It does not make sense to me.
 
Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Out of curiosity, how often does Achilles have major deities helping him? I know his armour is of Hephaestus, but do any of the gods intervene in his favour at any time?

I remembered another, when Hector threw a spear at Achilles, and Athene swerved the spear with a breath
 
Feb 2011
1,039
Scotland
I just found this: Paris hits the foot of Diomedes with an arrow (Book 11, verse 377) he was not a dumb with a bow in his hand

Paris's cowardice is notorious, Hector has to press him to face Menelaus (Book 3, verses 38-57)

On Achilles' death, Hector's prophecy associated with Paris's ability with the bow and his notorious cowardice help to understand that the son of Peleus was killed by an arrow and with the help of Apollo, this can not be proved, but what the other hypothesis? That Hector's prophecy was wrong? That Paris killed Achilles in a sword duel? It does not make sense to me.
Paris' reluctance to engage in hand-to-hand combat is pretty natural for an archer. His record as an archer was quite impressive- a few more like him might have made a significant difference! Missile troops were usually despised by the 'heavies' but they actually won battles. Even the Spartans discovered this.

However as a Prince, he would be expected to lead from the front- the very opposite of what an archer wishes to do. So why did Paris take up archery? Was it cowardice - or had he a wider vision?
 
Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Paris' reluctance to engage in hand-to-hand combat is pretty natural for an archer. His record as an archer was quite impressive- a few more like him might have made a significant difference! Missile troops were usually despised by the 'heavies' but they actually won battles. Even the Spartans discovered this.

However as a Prince, he would be expected to lead from the front- the very opposite of what an archer wishes to do. So why did Paris take up archery? Was it cowardice - or had he a wider vision?
He had to be pressed by his brother to face Menelaus in single combat, he is often called a seducer, in a pejorative sense, courage is not the positive point of Paris

I like this character, and for 10 or 20 years he had the most beautiful woman in the world in his bed, but nobody can be everything
 
Feb 2011
1,039
Scotland
He had to be pressed by his brother to face Menelaus in single combat, he is often called a seducer, in a pejorative sense, courage is not the positive point of Paris

I like this character, and for 10 or 20 years he had the most beautiful woman in the world in his bed, but nobody can be everything
That's pretty understandable for an archer not to want to undergo hand to hand combat. Even given appropriate armour, the fight is very much on the other fellow's terms. Given the nature of what was at stake, one would have expected the Trojans to put up one of their best hand to hand fighters; if they were happy to let the two men of the triangle sort it out personally they could have done so by way of negotiations before the Greeks went to all the trouble to mount such a massive expedition.

But the poem is a story written by Greeks for a Greek audience, so naturally they would want to denigrate the man at the centre of the opposition. Paris is criticised as a effeminate coward, but he bagged the most beautiful woman in the world from her Royal husband and he bagged the biggest scalp the Greek army could field; so he certainly had something going for him.

Ironically he is just about the only substantial character in the Iliad for whom there is even a smidgen of evidence for having existed.
 
Sep 2014
877
Texas
Actually Helen had no say in this contest. She was handed over to Paris by Aphrodite.
I don't know where I read it but I seem to recall that letters were found among the Hittite ruins from Egypt about a man equated with Agamemnon raiding in the Med.

And I do remember reading that Apollo guided Paris' arrow, and that later Neoptolemus, Achilles' son, blamed Apollo for his father's death, and that Apollo killed the kid as well.
 
Mar 2014
451
Lost in Yharnam
Actually Helen had no say in this contest. She was handed over to Paris by Aphrodite.
I don't know where I read it but I seem to recall that letters were found among the Hittite ruins from Egypt about a man equated with Agamemnon raiding in the Med.

And I do remember reading that Apollo guided Paris' arrow, and that later Neoptolemus, Achilles' son, blamed Apollo for his father's death, and that Apollo killed the kid as well.
Apollo, Athena and Artemis always took their revenge very quickly
 
Feb 2011
1,039
Scotland
I don't know where I read it but I seem to recall that letters were found among the Hittite ruins from Egypt about a man equated with Agamemnon raiding in the Med.

.

Wikipedia discusses the Tawaglawa letter (from Hatti, not Egypt), an extract from which as follows-

"The Tawagalawa letter[1] (CTH 181) was written by a Hittite king (generally accepted as Hattusili III) to a king of Ahhiyawa around 1250 BC. This letter, of which only the third tablet has been preserved, concerns the activities of an adventurer named Piyama-Radu against the Hittites, and requests his extradition to Hatti under assurances of safe conduct. It is so named because it mentions a brother of the king of Ahhiyawa named Tawagalawa, a name suggested by numerous scholars, to be a Hittite representation of the Greek name Eteocles (Etewoklewes"

As the Ahhiyawa are generally considered to equate to the Achaeans and Wilusa to be Ilium (Troy) , it is amongst the foremost items of evidence for the historicity of a Trojan War. Agamemmnon himself is not mentioned here (or anywhere else so far as I am aware).
 

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