Afro-American Origins and Narration of American Music

Nov 2018
112
Kentucky
#1

There are a lot of misconceptions about the origins of musical genres. I heard a pretty broad claim that all genres of music (even classical music) originate from Black subculture, and after briefly studying the subject, it makes a lot of sense.Black subculture created Rock and Roll, with artists like Chuck Berry, and then the demographic surrogate Elvis Presley acted as the gateway to a White audience. Dubstep even originates from Reggae. Pop music had artists like Michael Jackson and Boyz II Men from the ‘80s. Even Theo Parrish was doing House music since the early '90s with German-created synthesizers and electro-instruments. Classical music, with stapled composers like Vivaldi, Chopin and Mozart, has its Fibonnaci sequence chord progressions originating from the Golden Ratio and Ancient Egyptian Kemitism. The pattern through history has been that Blacks create a subculture, and then White artists annex and more widely commercialize the created genre, and then Blacks find a new subculture to identify and express with. Is history in the middle of another repetition? Rap music has the largest White audience in history at the present, and the last half decade has given birth to many prominent White rappers, and some who have not innovated with any originality. Will Black subculture give birth to a new genre of music within the next five or ten years, or will we be able to co-exist without dichotomy? Or is this whole “theory” just a conceited form of Afro-centrism? Post your thoughts.


Even south American music originated with the African populations of that land.'

 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,358
Benin City, Nigeria
#2
European classical music has nothing to do with black musical styles or subcultures, whereas the other genres that you mentioned actually do originate from such styles.
 
Nov 2018
112
Kentucky
#3
You must not be aware that those instruments seen as "European" are really ancient African instruments that date back into antiquity. They were introduced...to Europeans by the Moors.


"The most significant Moorish musician was known as Ziryab (the Blackbird) who arrived in Spain in 822. The Moors introduced earliest versions of several instruments, including the Lute or el oud, the guitar or kithara and the Lyre. Ziryab changed the style of eating by breaking meals into separate courses beginning with soup and ending with desserts."
European and Asian populations have been highly influenced by the musical templates that history has shown that Africoid populations (even in Asia) tend to create out of nothing. If I'm wrong what are the most popular European or East Asian styles of music, and do they impact the World?




It's like with Hip-Hop today you have a lot European descent artist, who are visibly using the styles of prominent rappers in the past that the younger generations in the culture haven't been taught about. It's crazy because in 30 years an art that started off exclusively in the hoods of black America and for decades associated strictly with black culture, is now being used by the same cultures who tend to dismiss the intelligence of the culture in which they're stealing from. It's essentially the gentrification of our culture, by people who tend not like to note our value right before our eyes...theft blatant theft. It's amazing because I'm only 28, but I remember a decade ago when playing hip hop around a bunch European descent people could start a fight. Those same Europeans today are acting like the music that they detested in it's prime is now what they consider classic hip hop and now it's AMERICAN CULTURE...the same American culture that has no problem watching injustices happen to these people whom their popular revolves around. The contradiction of that entire notion through this example is interesting as we watch what is happening right now.
 
Last edited:
Jan 2010
3,961
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#4
The influence on contemporary popularworld music of the African diaspora is overwhelming.

But I believe that trying to claim more African influence than can be proven hurts rather than helps legitimate claims. To buy into your presentation, I'd like to see some proof of influence of African music on European classical music, pre-conquest South American music (such as Cusquenha), and oriental music.

Not musical theory, but musical practice.
 

Ighayere

Ad Honorem
Jul 2012
2,358
Benin City, Nigeria
#5
You must not be aware that. . .
I have actually mentioned Ziryab on this forum before. It's a bit unclear what his actual ancestry was (there seem to be differing accounts), although some of the earliest accounts seem to suggest that he was part black. But it hardly follows from the fact that he made some innovations in Arabic music of his time that the origin of European classical music can be attributed to some supposed "Moorish" (or some earlier Egyptian) influence. And even if there actually was some proven and definite influence from Islamic Spain on the development of classical music (and I haven't seen the evidence for that), I don't think it follows that this would necessarily be an African influence.
 
Last edited:
Nov 2018
112
Kentucky
#6
To buy into your presentation, I'd like to see some proof of influence of African music on European classical music,

"The Krar harp or one of its variations later developed into the guitarro, the direct ancestor of the guitar which was used widely in ancient Mauritania, later known as the Maghreb, the Sahel and Guinea.
Guitarro was introduced to Spain by African Moors in the 9th century AD. They used it for their music and soon the whole of Spain, southern Italy, southern France, became avid acolytes of guitarro culture."​

T pre-conquest South American music (such as Cusquenha),
Well I'm not one to believe that humans have been sea surfing for 100,000 years, but it was only 500 years ago that someone sailed to America. I fully believe based on overwhelming evidence that various waves of Africoid populations ventures over into the continent over that course of time. Given the evidence for a large presence of Africans in America prior to Columbus, I do not look at these Africans in the picture as descendants of enslaved Africans recently brought over, but rather people with a long standing presence on the land.


and oriental music.
Can you name any none satellite radio music stations in America or the West that caters to "Oriental" music other than K-pop which clearly came Jamaican/West Indies dance hall.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,725
Sydney
#7
the claim of a Moorish origin for the European instruments is rubbish , Europe had a multiplicity of string and wind instruments way before

The Black American influence in popular music was pretty local around the deep south from the end of the civil war ,
it's style reputedly influenced by the great number of Army brass instruments available post war
this music had deep African roots and Western church choir liturgy ,

The rest of America was following European style of sheet music-hall in the cities while country had old English ballads as a source

the irruption of Jazz recording date from the 1900 in New York cabarets ,brothels and public places
while it's roots are from New Orleans , white musicians contributed much to its form
it was introduced to Europe via the music band of the "Harlem Hell Fighters" regiment fighting in the French Army in 1916

to claim too much you would only prove too little
 
Nov 2018
112
Kentucky
#8
the claim of a Moorish origin for the European instruments is rubbish , Europe had a multiplicity of string and wind instruments way before
If you're talking Greece or Rome....Then you know that they learned all of those arts from Kemet and Nubia (as THEY stated in many cases)

the great number of Army brass instruments available post war this music had deep African roots and Western church choir liturgy ,
You mean Moorish rooted instruments?



The rest of America was following European style of sheet music-hall in the cities while country had old English ballads as a source
"One of the most important categories in the Sheet Music Collection is the African-Americana. This consists of music by and relating to African Americans, from the 1820s to the present day, and consists of approximately 6,000 items. Of that number, 1,700 items are fully cataloged in MARC format, from which the titles digitized in this project have been drawn."

link

the irruption of Jazz recording date from the 1900 in New York cabarets ,brothels and public places while it's roots are from New Orleans , white musicians contributed much to its form
No one denies that there were white inspired Jazz artist, but they had nothing to do with it's inception that originated in the segregated enclaves of the deep south.
 
Jan 2010
3,961
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#9

"The Krar harp or one of its variations later developed into the guitarro, the direct ancestor of the guitar which was used widely in ancient Mauritania, later known as the Maghreb, the Sahel and Guinea.
Guitarro was introduced to Spain by African Moors in the 9th century AD. They used it for their music and soon the whole of Spain, southern Italy, southern France, became avid acolytes of guitarro culture."​



Well I'm not one to believe that humans have been sea surfing for 100,000 years, but it was only 500 years ago that someone sailed to America. I fully believe based on overwhelming evidence that various waves of Africoid populations ventures over into the continent over that course of time. Given the evidence for a large presence of Africans in America prior to Columbus, I do not look at these Africans in the picture as descendants of enslaved Africans recently brought over, but rather people with a long standing presence on the land.




Can you name any none satellite radio music stations in America or the West that caters to "Oriental" music other than K-pop which clearly came Jamaican/West Indies dance hall.
--Although the guitar is used some in European Classical music, it's definitely an outlier. I was hoping for more evidence on violin,. cello, musical forms, etc.. E.g. You give a pretty good explanation of the African roots of American popular music. Do you know of anything similar for Europe? E.g. any suggestion that Gregorian chant is rooted in African musical forms?

--We have debated fairly exhaustively claims of African migration to Europe prior to Columbus and as much as I'd like to believe it, proof is lacking. One painting of dark-skinned persons is not proof. I've been to Peru a couple of times and have seen zero evidence of African influence outside the region south of Lima.

--That's an irrelevant answer. I meant, e.g. Gamelan music.
 
May 2017
96
Monterrey
#10
I find the premise a bit idiotic, and it's probably tied to the even more idiotic idea of cultural appropriation. What exactly is wrong about Elvis being influenced by earlier artists and becoming a mainstream star? Is it somehow wrong? Is it wrong because he was white? Or for example, are us Finns not allowed to make rap songs in Finnish? Are we supposed to wait until enough black immigrants from USA arrive, learn Finnish and start singing in our own language? Or is this just another penis measure contest of "my race is the best"? I don't really give two shits about who invented what. I just enjoy the music if it's good. Guess some people just can't stop segregating. Is it so hard to think that Chuck Berry and Elvis had more in common with each other than they had with people of matching skin color?

And just to poke holes: in the first linked video the people are singing in English. Did that language originate in Africa too?

Btw. "black american RAP" seems to be stuck in gangsta mode(or rather, in the 90s). There's a **** ton of underground **** of course.
 
Last edited:

Similar History Discussions