Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
23,785
Lago Maggiore, Italy
The chair/throne size is of interest, I think. For a child?

If Great Royal Wife around Yr 30, then it would not seem she was wife of Thutmose. The jar you mention: have you sighted it?
From the page on WIKI I get these measures:

height:78cm
width:54cm
depth:63cm.

The chair / throne was possible to be used also by an adult woman in Ancient Egypt without problems.

About the jar, it's among the objects I'm going to look for, just to build a context for Sitamun.

The Wiki reference for that label is correct, O'Connor & Cline reports an object from Malkata palace, Hayes 1951, fig.9. Label type 95. Now I have to find the work by Hayes ...
 
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Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,719
Bendigo
From the page on WIKI I get these measures:

height:78cm
width:54cm
depth:63cm.

The chair / throne was possible to be used also by an adult woman in Ancient Egypt without problems.

About the jar, it's among the objects I'm going to look for, just to build a context for Sitamun.

The Wiki reference for that label is correct, O'Connor & Cline reports an object from Malkata palace, Hayes 1951, fig.9. Label type 95. Now I have to find the work by Hayes ...
Ok ... https://imalqata.files.wordpress.co...m-the-palace-of-amenhotep-iii-part-2-1951.pdf; Fig. 21. In the list [in hieroglyphics] a little below the middle we see Sitamun with the titles Royal Daughter and Great Royal Wife. The author indicates that such a label has been found with references to years 30, [34], 36.
Hard to see Sitamun giving birth to Nefertiti and then becoming Great Royal Spouse to her father. Though, if it was after Thutmose died??? And if it was purely a ritual position? Perhaps, Tiye had handed role over to her daughter? Or shared the ritual responsibilities with Sitamun as she got older? I have seen no hint that Sitamun bore children to her father. Is it coincidental that Sitamun becomes Great Royal Spouse around time Thutmose disappears?

Btw I can’t help seeing distinct similarities in the lives of these players.

Amenophis III, Tiye and Sitamun. Tiye and Sitamun are both GreatRoyal Spouses and get their own palaces from memory.
Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Meritaten. Nefertiti gets her own palace (Northern?) and Meritaten ends up with the Maru-Aten. Both are Great Royal Spouses.

Is this how things tended to play out during the whole 18th Dynasty?

Actually, I suddenly wonder if the Senior Great Royal Spouse, as she got older, got her daughter to take on a more important role. Perhaps even just as mentorship and training. Perhaps just sharing some of the responsibilities.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
23,785
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Hard to see Sitamun giving birth to Nefertiti and then becoming Great Royal Spouse to her father. Though, if it was after Thutmose died??? And if it was purely a ritual position? Perhaps, Tiye had handed role over to her daughter? Or shared the ritual responsibilities with Sitamun as she got older? I have seen no hint that Sitamun bore children to her father. Is it coincidental that Sitamun becomes Great Royal Spouse around time Thutmose disappears?

Btw I can’t help seeing distinct similarities in the lives of these players.

Amenophis III, Tiye and Sitamun. Tiye and Sitamun are both GreatRoyal Spouses and get their own palaces from memory.
Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Meritaten. Nefertiti gets her own palace (Northern?) and Meritaten ends up with the Maru-Aten. Both are Great Royal Spouses.

Is this how things tended to play out during the whole 18th Dynasty?

Actually, I suddenly wonder if the Senior Great Royal Spouse, as she got older, got her daughter to take on a more important role. Perhaps even just as mentorship and training. Perhaps just sharing some of the responsibilities.
In the matriarchal conception of Royal Family that Tiye showed to have ... this could be possible.

About the labels, I've checked the first part of the work by Hayes [where there are the drawings of the labels https://imalqata.files.wordpress.co...m-the-palace-of-amenhotep-iii-part-1-1951.pdf]. Years are there, what's curious is the Sitamun owned houses where they produced extraordinary ale and fat. The label 139, FIG. 11, indicates Year 36 without doubt. That jar contained Fat. I haven't found her on the labels of the wine jars.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,719
Bendigo
Briefly scrolled through your linked article. Very detailed and might need to read it thoroughly when I am not in bed on my iPad just about ready to nod off... but what I saw was fascinating.

Interesting that Hayes mentions the long Coregency of Amenophis and Akhenaten! Coincidentally enough, I have been thinking about it’s possibility again in regards to the marriage of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Hayes mentions that he thinks Sitamun took on more responsibility after Yr 30 (I quote very loosely btw!) with Tiye perhaps removing much of her attention to Akhenaten and affairs at Akhetaten. This would coincide with my thoughts about a mentorship of Akhenaten by his mother.

Anyway, I have been thinking of the death of Thutmose, and Akhenaten becoming Crown Prince. Would this be a good time for him to be married off to Nefertiti? Now, following this line of thought, if Thutmose died around Yr 30 and a Coregency with Amenophis and Akhenaten started about then, Akhenaten would have moved to Akhetaten (with his mother and young Wife) in about Yr 35-36 of Amenophis III/Yr 5 of Akhenaten. Year 39 of Amenophis (death) would be around Yr 8-9 Akhenaten. Yr 12 of Akhenaten would be around the time of the Great Durbar - 3 years after death of his father: a seb festival of sorts? Or the year Nefertiti Neferneruaten becomes Coregent as Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten?
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
23,785
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Briefly scrolled through your linked article. Very detailed and might need to read it thoroughly when I am not in bed on my iPad just about ready to nod off... but what I saw was fascinating.

Interesting that Hayes mentions the long Coregency of Amenophis and Akhenaten! Coincidentally enough, I have been thinking about it’s possibility again in regards to the marriage of Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Hayes mentions that he thinks Sitamun took on more responsibility after Yr 30 (I quote very loosely btw!) with Tiye perhaps removing much of her attention to Akhenaten and affairs at Akhetaten. This would coincide with my thoughts about a mentorship of Akhenaten by his mother.

Anyway, I have been thinking of the death of Thutmose, and Akhenaten becoming Crown Prince. Would this be a good time for him to be married off to Nefertiti? Now, following this line of thought, if Thutmose died around Yr 30 and a Coregency with Amenophis and Akhenaten started about then, Akhenaten would have moved to Akhetaten (with his mother and young Wife) in about Yr 35-36 of Amenophis III/Yr 5 of Akhenaten. Year 39 of Amenophis (death) would be around Yr 8-9 Akhenaten. Yr 12 of Akhenaten would be around the time of the Great Durbar - 3 years after death of his father: a seb festival of sorts? Or the year Nefertiti Neferneruaten becomes Coregent as Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten?
The possibility which sounds may be the most curious, but probably the most probable is that, Amenhotep III and Tiye planned not to leave alone Amenhotep IV-Akhenaten on the Throne. So that once ended the coregency with the father, Akhenaten started the coregency with the wife who became Ankhkheperure. I think that, just on the base of the experience with the father, Akhenaten could have considered even natural to have a coregent. The point is that he persuaded Nefertiti to support him in his Atenist adventure and honestly I would say that Nefertiti perhaps didn't need to be persuaded. She looked quite Atenist from the beginning.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,719
Bendigo
The possibility which sounds may be the most curious, but probably the most probable is that, Amenhotep III and Tiye planned not to leave alone Amenhotep IV-Akhenaten on the Throne. So that once ended the coregency with the father, Akhenaten started the coregency with the wife who became Ankhkheperure. I think that, just on the base of the experience with the father, Akhenaten could have considered even natural to have a coregent. The point is that he persuaded Nefertiti to support him in his Atenist adventure and honestly I would say that Nefertiti perhaps didn't need to be persuaded. She looked quite Atenist from the beginning.
I think this is all quite plausible. In regard to Atenism, every now and then I stumble on references to the Aten during Amenophis III’s reign. As you know, I have pondered many times on just how complicit the father (and mother!) was in the son’s religious revolution. Perhaps the problem for Akhenaten was just how far he took his beliefs and just how incompetently he ran his administration.

I also ponder much on Smenkhkare and the seeming attempt to put Maat right by the apparent rapprochment with Thebes. Nefertiti might have herself been very complicit in the whole Aten thing, but for me it is almost like she had a hard head for the politics of the times and perhaps saw the writing on the wall quite early, what with Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten seeming to keep her finger on the pulse outside Akhetaten and her adoption of ‘S’menk-kare as a nomen on assuming the throne on her own.

This brings me on to KV55. I have a strong hunch now (or delusion) that Akhenaten and Nefertiti and Tiye were moved to the VoK under the auspices of Tut and those administrators/couriers that were still supporters of Akhenaten/Nefertiti. This means someone ordered the clearing of KV55 of Tiye and Nefertiti at a later time, the time of Tut’s death and entombment seeming a good fit. Akhenaten was left behind and Tiye and Nefertiti removed. To where? Initially, Amenophis III’s tomb? And by Ay! Stephen Cross’ flood strongly supports that proposition. Ay was a supporter of Amenophis III, Tiye and Nefertiti, bu disillusioned with the legacy of Akhenaten...

So, KV35YL is Nefertiti (according to my current delusion). So who killed her? Well, it could have been a conspiracy by opponents of Nefertiti. Ones who hated the whole idea of another Hatshetsup being on the throne on top of the chaos the whole Akhetaten thing had caused. The poltical state of affairs must have seemed a total wreck to some, an assault on Maat! But Ay prevailed at the time and the conspirators dealt with. Nefertiti was accorded proper mummification. But Ay was no friend of Akhenaten’s. So when he became pharaoh, he moved his beloved Tiye (his sister?) and his beloved Hereditary Princess and grand niece (Nefertiti) away from the defiling presence of Akhenaten.... Ay blamed Akhenaten in the end for everything that had gone wrong, even though Amenophis III, Tiye and Nefertiti, and he himself, AND Paatenemheb/Horemheb, must surely take a fair component of the blame themselves. (Now I will retire to my padded cell!)
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
23,785
Lago Maggiore, Italy
The "Big Three Guys" ... no one among them had the bravery to get the Throne, they preferred to leave Tutankhaten - Tutankhamen become Horo. Even if the real power was in the hands of the regency council composed by Ay, Horemheb and Maya, the Horo was Tut.

The killer [if Nefertiti was KV35YL and she got killed] is among them [or at least the instigator of the homicide].
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,719
Bendigo
The "Big Three Guys" ... no one among them had the bravery to get the Throne, they preferred to leave Tutankhaten - Tutankhamen become Horo. Even if the real power was in the hands of the regency council composed by Ay, Horemheb and Maya, the Horo was Tut.

The killer [if Nefertiti was KV35YL and she got killed] is among them [or at least the instigator of the homicide].
Plausible. I think it would be naive of us if we thought there were not all sorts of palace machinations going on. Tut may have been seen as the legitimate horo, but the power of rule may very well have been substantially in the hands of his top courtiers: this true of Amenophis III or Thutmosis III, but even moreso with a minor on the throne. I think that is born out by the later falling out between Ay and Horemheb. Once legitimate males heirs were no more, then someone needed to take the sceptre and marry the main heiress that was still around. First Ankhsenamun (Ay) and - just maybe - Mubenret (Horemheb).

To return a little to straight out plausibilities and a little away from purer speculations...

KV35YL. Who is she?

1. Nefertiti.
2. Meritaten.
3. Ankhsenamun (postulating that Ankhsenamun Tasherit was Tut’s Wife)
4. Beketaten.
5. Sitamun.

I think 3 and 5 the least likely, given time frames, but let’s keep the mind open here.

More importantly, what motives for her murder? Sitamun seems least likely (to me) to have been murdered.

Nefertiti as woman Pharaoh, I can imagine her removal.

One of them orderering a mail order Hittite Prince? That story seems so dubious to me. But the detail of the murdered prince gives me pause. Could that be the motivation for the murder? Ay married Ankhsenamun, but was Ankhsenamun still alive when he died? Horemheb had Mutbenret (???) Surely, if the story is true, Ankhsenamun, surviving Ay’s demise, must be the best candidate.

Still, there seems plenty of reasons why Nefertiti might be violently removed.
 
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Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,719
Bendigo
NB Hereditary Princess...


Is there an easy way to find out who the recorded Hereditary Princesses were in the 18th Dynasty? If we had the names of the designated 18th Dynasty Hereditary Princesses, we might know the ‘context’ of the usage better...
 

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