Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,047
Bendigo
Have done a wee bit of research and it seems both Tiye and Nefertiti’s sister (???), Mutnedjmet (after becoming Horemheb’s Queen???) were ‘Hereditary Princesses’!
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Have done a wee bit of research and it seems both Tiye and Nefertiti’s sister (???), Mutnedjmet (after becoming Horemheb’s Queen???) were ‘Hereditary Princesses’!
Being Nefertiti a Hereditary Princess, and the term they used was the one for the noble Royal title, it's not so odd that the mother [or the father] gave the same title to the sister, since they had to be or daughters of a Monarch or daughters of a Hereditary Princess [or Prince].

Mutbenret doesn't appear often, and in the depiction we know that title is absent. But we have seen that such a title wasn't always mentioned [it depended on the context, also Nefertiti doesn't show it in many depictions].

About Tiye we have already said that her mother Tjuyu was with all probability a descendant of Ahmose-Nefertari, a Hereditary Princess and the title was hereditary itself. So its transmission to Tiye through the generations is not surprising.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
NB Hereditary Princess...


Is there an easy way to find out who the recorded Hereditary Princesses were in the 18th Dynasty? If we had the names of the designated 18th Dynasty Hereditary Princesses, we might know the ‘context’ of the usage better...
It will need a bit of time to check [as we have seen easy sources like WIKI can be incomplete about the titles carried by a Royal Wife.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,047
Bendigo
It will need a bit of time to check [as we have seen easy sources like WIKI can be incomplete about the titles carried by a Royal Wife.
My wee bit of research has mainly been wiki... I still look for Royal blood in Nefertiti and Mutnedjmet.... I am curious to know how we k ow Tiye is descended from Ahmose-Nefertari? That is a long line of descent...
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Plausible. I think it would be naive of us if we thought there were not all sorts of palace machinations going on. Tut may have been seen as the legitimate horo, but the power of rule may very well have been substantially in the hands of his top courtiers: this true of Amenophis III or Thutmosis III, but even moreso with a minor on the throne. I think that is born out by the later falling out between Ay and Horemheb. Once legitimate males heirs were no more, then someone needed to take the sceptre and marry the main heiress that was still around. First Ankhsenamun (Ay) and - just maybe - Mubenret (Horemheb).

To return a little to straight out plausibilities and a little away from purer speculations...

KV35YL. Who is she?

1. Nefertiti.
2. Meritaten.
3. Ankhsenamun (postulating that Ankhsenamun Tasherit was Tut’s Wife)
4. Beketaten.
5. Sitamun.

I think 3 and 5 the least likely, given time frames, but let’s keep the mind open here.

More importantly, what motives for her murder? Sitamun seems least likely (to me) to have been murdered.

Nefertiti as woman Pharaoh, I can imagine her removal.

One of them orderering a mail order Hittite Prince? That story seems so dubious to me. But the detail of the murdered prince gives me pause. Could that be the motivation for the murder? Ay married Ankhsenamun, but was Ankhsenamun still alive when he died? Horemheb had Mutbenret (???) Surely, if the story is true, Ankhsenamun, surviving Ay’s demise, must be the best candidate.

Still, there seems plenty of reasons why Nefertiti might be violently removed.
If the Hittite Prince was the reason why a Queen got killed we can exclude Ankhsenamun ... she eventually survived to the episode, getting married with Ay. Following this path Nefertiti would be a nice candidate for that letter ... After Akhenaten she was no more the Great Royal Wife of a Monarch and even being Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare she didn't survive for long ... Yesterday I have read an article saying that Nefertiti is gaining points about that letter.

The counter argument is obvious: Nefertiti was Horo [and becoming Smenkhkare she demonstrated that she didn't need a husband on the throne to keep the power].

Then, to kill Ankhesenamun would have been a nonsense and a damage to the tradition: she was [guess!] "iryt-p`t", Hereditary Princess", and she carried the Royal Blood. Despite what she did or not, in the name of Ma'at and for the future of KmT ... she had to live.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
My wee bit of research has mainly been wiki... I still look for Royal blood in Nefertiti and Mutnedjmet.... I am curious to know how we k ow Tiye is descended from Ahmose-Nefertari? That is a long line of descent...
To know is not the verb to use ... to suppose is better. We don't know with accuracy who were Tiye's mother parents. What we know is that the private tomb of Tjuyu and Yuja is in the Valley of the Kings [! it's the KV46] and that a private tomb was in that valley was absolutely a rare exception. Monarchs weren't used to ensure such a honor to the relatives of the Royal Wives. Then there is just the title "Hereditary Princess" carried by Tiye. These clues suggest a Royal lineage of some kind. I guess that who suggested Ahmose-Nefertari reasoned by exclusion. In any case it's not sure.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,047
Bendigo
To know is not the verb to use ... to suppose is better. We don't know with accuracy who were Tiye's mother parents. What we know is that the private tomb of Tjuyu and Yuja is in the Valley of the Kings [! it's the KV46] and that a private tomb was in that valley was absolutely a rare exception. Monarchs weren't used to ensure such a honor to the relatives of the Royal Wives. Then there is just the title "Hereditary Princess" carried by Tiye. These clues suggest a Royal lineage of some kind. I guess that who suggested Ahmose-Nefertari reasoned by exclusion. In any case it's not sure.
‘I guess that who suggested Ahmose-Nefertari reasoned by exclusion.’ Do not know what you mean by ‘reasoned by exclusion.’
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
‘I guess that who suggested Ahmose-Nefertari reasoned by exclusion.’ Do not know what you mean by ‘reasoned by exclusion.’
The lineage of other Queens is quite known ... Among the ones with "dark areas" in their offspring they needed to find a Hereditary Princess.

Anyway, I would go back for a while to the first tomb of Ay, where he presents his wife Tey. We have noted that, once Queen, she showed also the title Hereditary Princess. Now, as I have said for Nefertiti [that such a title was visible only in particular contexts, like on the boundary stelae], also for Tey we've got the same situation: on the outer jambs of Ay's tomb at Akhetaten [The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive] we can see, on the right side in the bottom [I haven't noted this yet], that Tey was nurse of Nefertiti and Handmaid of Akhenaten, but ... also tutor of Nefertiti. This gives credit to my hypothesis that she had studied in a House of Life. An other clue for a well important origin.

This adds further sense to the fact that once Queen she begun to show the title "Hereditary Princess", because she was a natural HP as well.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,047
Bendigo
The lineage of other Queens is quite known ... Among the ones with "dark areas" in their offspring they needed to find a Hereditary Princess.

Anyway, I would go back for a while to the first tomb of Ay, where he presents his wife Tey. We have noted that, once Queen, she showed also the title Hereditary Princess. Now, as I have said for Nefertiti [that such a title was visible only in particular contexts, like on the boundary stelae], also for Tey we've got the same situation: on the outer jambs of Ay's tomb at Akhetaten [The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive] we can see, on the right side in the bottom [I haven't noted this yet], that Tey was nurse of Nefertiti and Handmaid of Akhenaten, but ... also tutor of Nefertiti. This gives credit to my hypothesis that she had studied in a House of Life. An other clue for a well important origin.

This adds further sense to the fact that once Queen she begun to show the title "Hereditary Princess", because she was a natural HP as well.
Paragraph 1: ‘Among the ones with “dark areas” in their offspring they needed to find a Hereditary Princess.’ I don’t know what you mean here.

Paragraph 2: ‘Tey was nurse of Nefertiti and Handmaid of Akhenaten, but... also tutor of Nefertiti.’ This sounds to me like Nefertiti and Akhenaten (read ‘Amenophis’ here???) grew up together as children. Is that what this implies? What is a ‘handmaid’ btw? What role does she perform?

Paragraph 3: little unclear what your connection is here? Are you saying that she was a ‘Hereditary Princess’ (a Royal) already and now a queen as well? It was not a title she obtained AFTER becoming Queen?
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Paragraph 1: ‘Among the ones with “dark areas” in their offspring they needed to find a Hereditary Princess.’ I don’t know what you mean here.

Paragraph 2: ‘Tey was nurse of Nefertiti and Handmaid of Akhenaten, but... also tutor of Nefertiti.’ This sounds to me like Nefertiti and Akhenaten (read ‘Amenophis’ here???) grew up together as children. Is that what this implies? What is a ‘handmaid’ btw? What role does she perform?

Paragraph 3: little unclear what your connection is here? Are you saying that she was a ‘Hereditary Princess’ (a Royal) already and now a queen as well? It was not a title she obtained AFTER becoming Queen?
Actually there are titles there, not names. It's said "nurse and tutoress of the Queen and handmaid of the King". On the right side it's not specified who is the Queen and who is the King, it's on the left side that it's said that Tey was nurse of Nefertiti.
 

Similar History Discussions