Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
If given to Kedi, I wonder how it ended up in Tut’s tomb? Was Kedi a pet name for a Royal, I wonder?
It wasn't rare that a Royal object was given as a present [usually part of a reward] to an officer. What we can imagine is that this Kedi wasn't far from Tut in his daily life and it's possible that the King noted the box. It happened that Monarchs carried with them objects from their daily life. The content [garments of linen] makes me think to an officer who managed the supplies for a rank of the Guard [that definition "House-of-destroying-the-Bowmen" ... it sounds military]. Not impossible that the officer died before of Tut and that Tut wanted the box of his mother [or stepmother, in any case it's clear that the object had a certain value for the Monarch].

There are several different options to explain the presence of that box in Tut's tomb.
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
I can see your point. Was the Hereditary Princess always on public inscriptions?
Well, the walls of a tomb are private, a boundary stela is a public state document. Actually I haven't found the title Hereditary Princess in the introduction of the cartouches of Nefertiti on the walls of the tombs at Akhetaten [and I have taken a look at all the works by Norman De Garis Davies]. It may be the explanation.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,047
Bendigo
It wasn't rare that a Royal object was given as a present [usually part of a reward] to an officer. What we can imagine is that this Kedi wasn't far from Tut in his daily life and it's possible that the King noted the box. It happened that Monarchs carried with them objects from their daily life. The content [garments of linen] makes me think to an officer who managed the supplies for a rank of the Guard [that definition "House-of-destroying-the-Bowmen" ... it sounds military]. Not impossible that the officer died before of Tut and that Tut wanted the box of his mother. There are several different options to explain the presence of that box in Tut's tomb.
I wonder what the garments of linen were.... If for Kedi, then Tut must have been one to visit Kedi’s private rooms. Or perhaps cleared Kedi’s rooms after his death? I wonder: the gift to Kedi was from Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten? Sounds a bit like a gift a woman might give. Was Kedi in some sense involved with Tut’s royal bodyguard?

Well, the walls of a tomb are private, a boundary stela is a public state document. Actually I haven't found the title Hereditary Princess in the introduction of the cartouches of Nefertiti on the walls of the tombs at Akhetaten [and I have taken a look at all the works by Norman De Garis Davies]. It may be the explanation.
Makes me wonder what Horemheb was doing by having ‘Hereditary Prince’ inscribed in his commoner tomb. Or have I got that wrong? If right, was he claiming a degree of ‘royalty’ rather claiming to be heir?

Edit: I see iry-pat (according to Wikipedia) is the highest elite figure after the pharaoh, usually a Crown Prince. So, is iryt-pat the highest ranking female? So a queen would be automatically the iryt-pat, one thinks. This would explain the examples of Hereditary Princesses we have spoken of. In regard to Horemheb, he might well have been the highest ranking official in the land, but perhaps Ay had more claim to the throne via bloodline? The question for me is: to be highest rank, do you need to also to be a Royal?
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
I wonder what the garments of linen were.... If for Kedi, then Tut must have been one to visit Kedi’s private rooms. Or perhaps cleared Kedi’s rooms after his death? I wonder: the gift to Kedi was from Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten? Sounds a bit like a gift a woman might give. Was Kedi in some sense involved with Tut’s royal bodyguard?



Makes me wonder what Horemheb was doing by having ‘Hereditary Prince’ inscribed in his commoner tomb. Or have I got that wrong? If right, was he claiming a degree of ‘royalty’ rather claiming to be heir?

Edit: I see iry-pat (according to Wikipedia) is the highest elite figure after the pharaoh, usually a Crown Prince. So, is iryt-pat the highest ranking female? So a queen would be automatically the iryt-pat, one thinks. This would explain the examples of Hereditary Princesses we have spoken of. In regard to Horemheb, he might well have been the highest ranking official in the land, but perhaps Ay had more claim to the throne via bloodline? The question for me is: to be highest rank, do you need to also to be a Royal?
I guess there wasn't a prohibition to use iry-p't in a private tomb, probably it was more proper in your own tomb [we haven't got Nefertiti's tomb to check this].

Pay attention at the usage of the iry-pat on WIKI. As for I can see it's the honorific title, not the proper hereditary Royal title.

Hereditary Princess.JPG

P.S. my source about this is the dictionary published by Livio Secco [who is professor of ancient Egyptian language and hieroglyphic writing].
P.S. 2 as I was saying before, changing the layout of the signs in "r-p't" and adding a "t" you will obtain "r-p't" [Hereditary Prince, male], but also the female version of the honorific title ...
 
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Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,047
Bendigo
I guess there wasn't a prohibition to use iry-p't in a private tomb, probably it was more proper in your own tomb [we haven't got Nefertiti's tomb to check this].

Pay attention at the usage of the iry-pat on WIKI. As for I can see it's the honorific title, not the proper hereditary Royal title.

View attachment 13336

P.S. my source about this is the dictionary published by Livio Secco [who is professor of ancient Egyptian language and hieroglyphic writing].
P.S. 2 as I was saying before, changing the layout of the signs in "r-p't" and adding a "t" you will obtain "r-p't" [Hereditary Prince, male], but also the female version of the honorific title ...

Mmmm.... so there was such a thing as a ‘honorific title’ for Hereditary Princess after all...

So where are we left? Was Nefertiti Hereditary Orincess AFTER she became queen, or already BEFORE she was queen? No way of knowing, I guess, because she does not seem to have even existed until AFTER Akhenaten became pharaoh... At least, not under the name ‘Nefertiti’.

And Horemheb’s claim to be Hereditary Prince? When did Tut select him to succeed on the chance Tut did not produce an heir?
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Mmmm.... so there was such a thing as a ‘honorific title’ for Hereditary Princess after all...

So where are we left? Was Nefertiti Hereditary Orincess AFTER she became queen, or already BEFORE she was queen? No way of knowing, I guess, because she does not seem to have even existed until AFTER Akhenaten became pharaoh... At least, not under the name ‘Nefertiti’.

And Horemheb’s claim to be Hereditary Prince? When did Tut select him to succeed on the chance Tut did not produce an heir?
With men it was different. A Monarch in a certain sense adopted a man, this was possible since the Royal Blood was on the side of the Royal Wife. So that there was the possibility that a commoner became Hereditary Prince [meaning the proper Royal title], like the Monarch adopted him. While for a woman the matter was more complicated: the Monarch wasn't able to give the Royal Blood to a not Royal woman just giving her a title. For a woman the proper Royal title [which is the one showed by Nefertiti] indicated Royal kinship of some kind.

We could wonder if this was recognized in the moment when the woman became Royal Wife. The work I was considering yesterday [http://nebula.wsimg.com/a3dd668d65d...04C32DB5A7CBCB15E&disposition=0&alloworigin=1] seems to sustain that there were Princesses with just that title. Now I'm going to check this, if it's true it means that the title was acquired since the birth.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
I've got a suspect.

From a general perspective the matter of fact that there is no consensus about the origin of Nefertiti suggests me that among Egyptologists there is no consensus as well about the title Hereditary Princess [and we are just discovering that to find a rule in its usage is not that easy], otherwise they would at least follow a line of enquiry, while they are following several different paths ...
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,047
Bendigo
With men it was different. A Monarch in a certain sense adopted a man, this was possible since the Royal Blood was on the side of the Royal Wife. So that there was the possibility that a commoner became Hereditary Prince [meaning the proper Royal title], like the Monarch adopted him. While for a woman the matter was more complicated: the Monarch wasn't able to give the Royal Blood to a not Royal woman just giving her a title. For a woman the proper Royal title [which is the one showed by Nefertiti] indicated Royal kinship of some kind.

We could wonder if this was recognized in the moment when the woman became Royal Wife. The work I was considering yesterday [http://nebula.wsimg.com/a3dd668d65d...04C32DB5A7CBCB15E&disposition=0&alloworigin=1] seems to sustain that there were Princesses with just that title. Now I'm going to check this, if it's true it means that the title was acquired since the birth.

Interesting article. (Post saved to my notes). As I think Nefertiti might well be daughter of Prince Thutmose, I have to like the theory her great grand father is Thutmose IV! The likenesses in the photos are suggestive of family genetics.

I've got a suspect.

From a general perspective the matter of fact that there is no consensus about the origin of Nefertiti suggests me that among Egyptologists there is no consensus as well about the title Hereditary Princess [and we are just discovering that to find a rule in its usage is not that easy], otherwise they would at least follow a line of enquiry, while they are following several different paths ...
Who is your suspect? Or are you just teasing? Or planning a book?
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,325
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Interesting article. (Post saved to my notes). As I think Nefertiti might well be daughter of Prince Thutmose, I have to like the theory her great grand father is Thutmose IV! The likenesses in the photos are suggestive of family genetics.



Who is your suspect? Or are you just teasing? Or planning a book?
As for I have understood so far, the proper noble Royal title "Hereditary Princess" indicated the descent from a Royal person, a woman and a Hereditary Princess as well. If we go back to the title of Ay ... "God's father" and we reconsider the option that Ay was Nefertiti's father ... the mother becomes quite obvious ... who was the Hereditary Princess when Ay was in the right period of his life to have a daughter? Tiye ... who, incidentally, has been identified [thanks to DNA tests] as the mother of the Younger Lady [KV35YL].

This hypothesis could explain the odd status story Nefertiti: she appeared out of the blue in the Royal Court. Not being daughter of the Monarch, but just of his Great Royal Wife, she wasn't showed with Amenhotep III, while her sisters weren't. Just her appearance has made not a few Egyptologists think that she was a foreign Princess [I guess that these scholars think that the Egyptians recognized anyway the title of Hereditary Princess to the daughter of an important foreign Queen ...].

The problem is that to validate such a context we need Ankhkheperure's tomb. I keep on thinking that she ordered to prepare an other Royal tomb. Obviously it would be empty, but the depictions of the walls could tell us something pivotal.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,047
Bendigo
As for I have understood so far, the proper noble Royal title "Hereditary Princess" indicated the descent from a Royal person, a woman and a Hereditary Princess as well. If we go back to the title of Ay ... "God's father" and we reconsider the option that Ay was Nefertiti's father ... the mother becomes quite obvious ... who was the Hereditary Princess when Ay was in the right period of his life to have a daughter? Tiye ... who, incidentally, has been identified [thanks to DNA tests] as the mother of the Younger Lady [KV35YL].

This hypothesis could explain the odd status story Nefertiti: she appeared out of the blue in the Royal Court. Not being daughter of the Monarch, but just of his Great Royal Wife, she wasn't showed with Amenhotep III, while her sisters weren't. Just her appearance has made not a few Egyptologists think that she was a foreign Princess [I guess that these scholars think that the Egyptians recognized anyway the title of Hereditary Princess to the daughter of an important foreign Queen ...].

The problem is that to validate such a context we need Ankhkheperure's tomb. I keep on thinking that she ordered to prepare an other Royal tomb. Obviously it would be empty, but the depictions of the walls could tell us something pivotal.
Ummm. So Tiye is mother? And Ay, father? If so, does this mean Nefertiti is Tiye’s eldest child, and Mutbenret, Nefertiti’s step-sister or even her full sister!?!?!?
 

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