Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Oct 2011
24,348
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Perhaps there were folk - especially in scribal circles, the literati, so to speak - who found the more spiritual (cerebral?) and monotheistic aspects of Atenism enticing and worshipping animals and ‘man-gods’ suddenly unsatisfying? This could be passed on.

...

Digression into more fanciful theory.

I find it curious that we have a Holy City with a monotheistic type of religion, with a divine leader writing psalm like religious poetry. Reminds me of King David. And Akhetaten is the one and only official cult centre in the land! [David’s campaigns seem remiscent of Thutmose III’s campaigns in the Levant]

We have Solomon and his proverbs, not unlike Amenophis III and his maxims.

Anyway, I find it all very curious.

[Furrher wild thoughts: Ah-Mose and the Hyksos Exodus happens a couple of hundred years earlier. A Moses template (with goodies and baddies reversed), and then, in the ensuing years a King who conquers much of the Levant (Thutmose III/David) and a later Holy City with a jealous god (Akhetaten/Jerusalem) with a King (Akhenaten/David again); then a wise king with a huge Harim, the uttering of wise maxims (Amenophis III/Jedidiah-Solomon)...]
If we think that the tale of the Exodus is a literary product generated by the sum of different traditions and recall and that the Tanakh we know had written in Greek in Hellenic Egypt ... we cannot exclude interpolations from Egyptian history [Manetho knew about the Amarna Period ... so it wasn't totally erased from the archives of the Houses of Life].
 
Jul 2017
2,094
Crows nest
Why trap him in his tomb? That’s perplexing, if so....

So there is no obvious reason to think Tut was anti his father in any way (assuming, as I do, his father was Akhenaten). The fact Ay raided KV55 (and KV63) and removed Tiye (IMO) says it all. Ay had a problem with what Akhenaten had done, even though I think Tiye and Nefertiti as a hand in it all. I guess it was on his watch that everything happened.
Well I don't think his ba was deliberately trapped in his tomb, and there are spells on his coffins, mask and shrines, but they are only part of the map and instructions. What we see on the walls of his tomb is extremely skimpy. However, we cannot know what they thought the bare minimum should be. I doubt it was necessary to have the full instructions we see in KV35 and 43, but KV62 seems to have nothing "workable" beyond the opening of the mouth ceremony and the dead king as Osiris. It's a bit like being told to get from Paris to Berlin using a map that is a blank sheet of paper except for the two cities to be marked, but no roads or any other information.
 
Jul 2017
2,094
Crows nest
In fact, Ay's Royal tomb [KV23] is really curious from this perspective ... we see him with Tey, his wife, in common scenes of daily life. He hunts and fishes with the wife ... [https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/pharaons/ay/e_ay_pharaon_02.htm]. Since it's so odd, there is who suggests that those scenes have got a symbolic meaning and they aren't simple recalls.
I would put that down to the change in style brought in by Akhenaten, which continued in part for long after him, and say that "typical" in the 18th Dynasty as far as royal tombs are concerned ended with Amunhotep III.
 
Jan 2017
3,073
Bendigo
He ordered to underline that title in the depiction where they are probably fishing [it's really evident, near the head of Tey]. Personally I wonder if he still felt the need for a kind of social support making reference to her wife, the Hereditary Princess. It's like who posts on Facebook pictures with a Hollywood star ... Probably he kept the mindset of the courtier and he imposed that curious choice to the overseer of the scribes and the artists who worked at his tomb.
Makes sense to me. Whether it’s true or not may be another thing, but why not? He would not be the first king to seize a throne and never wear the crown with full confidence in his right to have it.
 
Jan 2017
3,073
Bendigo
Well I don't think his ba was deliberately trapped in his tomb, and there are spells on his coffins, mask and shrines, but they are only part of the map and instructions. What we see on the walls of his tomb is extremely skimpy. However, we cannot know what they thought the bare minimum should be. I doubt it was necessary to have the full instructions we see in KV35 and 43, but KV62 seems to have nothing "workable" beyond the opening of the mouth ceremony and the dead king as Osiris. It's a bit like being told to get from Paris to Berlin using a map that is a blank sheet of paper except for the two cities to be marked, but no roads or any other information.
Knowing how priests have an answer for everything, I am sure they modified things, in a hurry, to get Tut through, lol.
 
Jan 2017
3,073
Bendigo
I would put that down to the change in style brought in by Akhenaten, which continued in part for long after him, and say that "typical" in the 18th Dynasty as far as royal tombs are concerned ended with Amunhotep III.
This would make sense to me. Just because in broad terms Atenism failed, does not mean it left a legacy and influence. Not everything stuck, but some things would have informed the future, surely.
 
Jan 2017
3,073
Bendigo
If we think that the tale of the Exodus is a literary product generated by the sum of different traditions and recall and that the Tanakh we know had written in Greek in Hellenic Egypt ... we cannot exclude interpolations from Egyptian history [Manetho knew about the Amarna Period ... so it wasn't totally erased from the archives of the Houses of Life].
For me, to continue the wild thoughts:

Joseph is set in the early Hyksos period. Maybe he was an early leader of invaders. Peacefully? Well, apologetics might be involved. Who knows? But the Hyksos, in a sense, enslaved the native Egyptians.

Moses at the end of the Hyksos period. A bit of reversals going on. Or opposite perspective. Ahmose forces the Hyksos Exodus. He frees his people from the hated foreigner. Moses, however, rescues his chosen people from their Egyptian slavery.

David sounds like a military man in the vein of Thutmose III, carving out a slice of empire in the Levant between the coast and the Euphrates. He is also the first king of the Hebrew Holy City. And a writer of hymns. Bit like Akhetaten and his Holy City and his hymn to the Aten. Do David (Didiah?) is a composite figure. And maybe a local warlord thrown in. So there is some historicity involved. He had carved out some sort of kingdom, but not the extensive one the Bible King had - that belonged to the Egyptians.

Jedidiah-Solomon, the wise king with his enormous harim and proverbs. Not unlike that wise king Amenophis III and his enormous harim and his proverbs. Again, a composite figure. King Jedidiah, a local king of Jerusalem, no more powerful than his son, Rehoboam, it his career sexed-up by stories of a greater King in Egypt.

I beat a horse, I think. But the parallels are spooky. I have read both Rohl and Osmond, along with others, so my own speculations on top of theirs (and not everything they say do I take as being as certain as they think they are!), may owe quite a bit to their powers of ‘persuasion’, of course.
 
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Oct 2011
24,348
Lago Maggiore, Italy
I would put that down to the change in style brought in by Akhenaten, which continued in part for long after him, and say that "typical" in the 18th Dynasty as far as royal tombs are concerned ended with Amunhotep III.
Yes, also this is true: in Akhenaten's Royal Tomb there are scenes from daily life [with all the family, like when they are mourning Meketaten]. Ay could have followed such an example of freedom in a Royal tomb. About this, Tutankhamen and Horemheb showed more traditionalist tombs.
 
Jan 2017
3,073
Bendigo
Yes, also this is true: in Akhenaten's Royal Tomb there are scenes from daily life [with all the family, like when they are mourning Meketaten]. Ay could have followed such an example of freedom in a Royal tomb. About this, Tutankhamen and Horemheb showed more traditionalist tombs.
What does Ay’s tomb at Amarna tell us about Akhenaten and the Aten?
 
Jan 2017
3,073
Bendigo
Just read the article on Osiris.net regards tomb 25-Ay at Amarna. Fascinating stuff. Many things struck me, but most of all Ay’s mention of Akhenaten being his ‘teacher’. Reminds me of the disciples calling Jesus their teacher. Ay is deeply in the Aten mindset as I see it. And I never thought of Akhenaten as a ‘teacher’. Wow! (Incidentally, Ay strove to be a good listener and kept his mouth shut. What a devoted devotee he must have been, at least, early on!]

I am now off to see what his tomb in the VoK can tell me about his changing perspectives!


Edit: back from reading about KV23 on Osirisnet. Ay sure put Atenism behind him, no mention at all! The devotee ‘saw the light’ and returned to older traditions. It seems obvious.

Lots of interesting things to see, two things stand out immediately for me.

1. The desecration of depictions of Tey is more thorough than that of Ay!!!
2. The groin area of depictions of Ay have been chiselled out. Which reminded me straight away of KV55’s missing penis (citing Martha Bell). Surely removing a man’s man-bits was saying something very important! Certainly no compliment. So Horemheb (presuming it is him) disrespects Ay’s memory and manhood, just like Ay (presuming it was him) disrespected KV55’s memory and manhood. Ay, as you guys know I think, did not care for Akhenaten, but he was once a devotee. Paatenemheb-Horemheb too, was a devotee at one stage! Both men were reformed smokers (Atenists) with a vengeance IMO.

Time now come to check out Osirisnet for Paatenheb’s tomb and Horemheb’s 2 tombs....

Further edit: forgot to say: could Tey be the queen of the Hittite Prince letter?
 
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