Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Jan 2017
3,061
Bendigo
The team of the Amarna Project is not sure to attribute the North Palace to Kiya.


[North Palace - Amarna The Place - Amarna Project]

Going down you will see the reconstruction made by Reeves where he sustains that Meritaten has substituted Kiya.

Now, that's the reconstruction where I suspect Reeves has fallen again in his curious attitute to exaggerate about interpolation. And he sees "Akhenaten" in the bigger partial cartouche.

Well, the bigger cartouche is also compatible with a version of one cartouche of the Aten and the traces of the signs of the original name of the queen can be compatible with "Kiya", but also with an early version of "Nefertiti". The traces are little, partial and too faded to allow to be really certain.
What do you mean by ‘compatible with “Kiya”, but also with an early version of “Nefertiti”’?
 
Jan 2017
3,061
Bendigo
Furrher to my post 5628....

If MeketAten is Tut’s mother (humour me here), then how would that affect our Amenophis III (chronology) spreadsheet?

Would we need to consider that Meritaten, Meketaten and Ankhsenamun (to keep in mind all three daughters) were born early in Akhenaten’s Reign.
-MeketAten would be at child bearing age at about 12 and bear her first child at about 13.
-Akhenaten has 17 years of reign.
-Tut is 8 or 9 when he ascends throne. 17 - 8 = Year 9. MeketAten would be about 7 years in Year 9 at best (if born in Year 2).

The discrepancy seems insurmountable. But can we look at our personages and sums again and see if we can recalculate?

Can we give Ankhkheperure Neferneferuaten years of independent rule? Maybe just under 2 years as Smenkhkare? We know we have a Year 3 for Neferneferuaten (Pairi’s tomb and somewhere else too, I think). That could extend until a name change to Smenkhkare close to 4 years. We have a wine docket for Smenkhkare Yr 1. That could extend until just short of the next years vintage. (Yes, I am asking you to keep humouring me).

So we have those 6 years in theory. (Maybe not ‘good’ theory, but not impossible theory nonetheless).

Can we take Meketatens Birth back any further? Meritaten’s, I think, could be taken back to just before Prince Amenophis became Amenophis IV.

Meritaten is recorded as kings daughter once Akhenaten became pharaoh, but this does not mean she was not born a year or two before he became pharaoh.

I seem to recall MeketAten was born in his first 5 years of reign, but not sure why I think that.

Ankhsenamun by Year 5, at latest.

Need to start up discussion again on the first three births again, I think. I know we went over it earlier on this thread, but it was before I started making notes of what I see as key posts. So can we discuss the birth of the daughters again?

I’m off to check Wikipedia as a starter....

Edit: back again, briefly.....

How old would the daughters need to be to be shown standing behind their parents during scenes? I ask because MeketAten is shown in a scene in Thebes in about Year 4 (Wikipedia), and it is suggested that she may have been born then. My immediate thought is she was already 5 or 6 to get into such a scene and not shown as an infant or toddler. So can we entertain the idea that until they started showing ‘babes in arms’ in Amarna depictions, could the daughters be of age 4 or 5, say, when first depicted? If so, Meritaten and Meketaten’s births could be taken back to before Akhenaten ascended the throne.

If MeketAten was born very early in, or before the end of, Year 1, we start to wonder if she could be old enough to die in childbirth in around Year 13 of her father.* That scene in the tomb of her death and the baby in arms is very, very suggestive. Meritaten may have already had her Tasherit by then and could well be the best candidate as wetnurse to her baby brother. Alain Zivie could be right. I think it plausible anyhow.

*Perhaps we might even be able to go back another year or 2 even.
 
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Oct 2011
24,340
Lago Maggiore, Italy
What do you mean by ‘compatible with “Kiya”, but also with an early version of “Nefertiti”’?
This requires a drawing ... but the work of Reeves is copyrighted. So, observing his drawing, pay attention to this:

nfr trace.JPG

Obviously the possibility of an alternative doesn't mean that also this time Reeves is wrong. An other interesting phenomenon visible in that palace is the change in the form of the head [in this case it seems the application of a different canon ...
 
Oct 2011
24,340
Lago Maggiore, Italy
About Akhenaten's daughters, there is a point: in the Earlier Proclamation on the boundary stelae, when Akhenaten talks about possible death and burial sites, he mentions himself, Nefertiti and Meritaten. Not Meketaten yet.

This means that in Year 4 [let's trust garis and Davies] Meketaten wasn't born yet. We have to follow Davies about the Year on the stela if we want to accept that Meketaten was born in late Year 4. If we follow the common reading ... the date says Year 5. Last time I checked I didn't see clear numbers. I will make an other try [may be on an other stela there is an other date].
 
Jan 2017
3,061
Bendigo
Regarding the Later Proclamation I have found a clear date: The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

View attachment 14135

About the Earlier Proclamation we aren't that lucky about the quality, anyway I see Egyptologists have made an educated guess.

View attachment 14136
This still begs the question, with such high infant mortality, at what age did children start being shown? In earlier depictions of the royal family, showing three daughters, are they ever shown as babes in arms or toddlers? In the depiction of MeketAten in Year 4, is she a baby, showing her birth, or is she a small child of 3, 4 or 5. My understanding is children would stil be partially breast fed until they were 3 and even older. So Year 4 or 5 might really really be showing the public debut of a child on a public record.

Is the showing of babies and infants in later depictions of the family another Amarna innovation? Was 3, 4 or 5 the age when children might be shown to the world and posterity on official records?
 
Jan 2017
3,061
Bendigo
This requires a drawing ... but the work of Reeves is copyrighted. So, observing his drawing, pay attention to this:

View attachment 14134

Obviously the possibility of an alternative doesn't mean that also this time Reeves is wrong. An other interesting phenomenon visible in that palace is the change in the form of the head [in this case it seems the application of a different canon ...
I am somewhat confused. We have 3 ‘traces’ of Nefertiti and Kiya... so what do these ‘traces’ correspond with in the names. I see no trace of ‘Nefertiti’ in ‘Kiya’, or vice versa...? What do the 3 traces (hieroglyphs) spell out? I see two vertical lines, and a Queen (?) fishing (?), and a crook or reed(?) These form part of the both the words (names) Nefertiti and Kiya? This would seem not to be the case, at least to me who cannot read hieroglyphs. Can you explain, because clearly I don’t understand the mechanics here.
 
Jan 2017
3,061
Bendigo
Looking up childhood in Ancient Egypt I stumbled over a curiousity on a site called ‘Introduction to the culture and history of Pharaonic Egypt’. In an article there I saw Tiy wife of Ay described as ‘Great nurse, nourisher of the God, adorner of the king’. Do you know of this description? If so, and accurate, what are we seeing here?

For sake of the argument, I’ll accept these descriptions (epithets) exist. [Somehow, I suspect they don’t, and the article quoting ‘Great nurse, nourisher of the God, adorner of the king’ has got something drastically wrong here. But humour me].

So ‘Great nurse, nourisher of the God...’ suggests Tiy (Tey) wet nursed a pharaoh!!! If so, which pharaoh? Nefertiti? Does this suggest a time AFTER Ay’s Amarna Tomb inscriptions regarding Tey as wetnurse to Nefertiti? A time when Nefertiti’s status had risen from Great Royal Spouse to horo? ‘Adorner of the king’ might apply to her relation with Ay as pharaoh, I guess. Or ‘adorner’ of ‘King’ Nefertiti... maybe.... Tiy/Tey as ‘aunt’ or ‘aunt-in-law’ of Nefertiti?

So putting it all together, is there a text somewhere where Tey is recorded as ‘adorner’ of King Ay, former wetnurse of a former pharaoh, Nefertiti? If the former king was Akhenaten, surely it would have been recorded alongside or instead of the Nefertiti wet nursing inscription....

As I said, curious. But if the text is to be found and is translated accurately, well...wow! I say, ‘WOW!’




EDIT: Did a little further checking. The above stuff seems clearly to have been quoted from a book by Ahmed Osman: ‘Christianity: An Ancient Egyptian Religion.’ Look up ‘Great nurse, nourisher of the god, adorner of the king’ and you’ll find the section of the book that pertains. [In the passage where it is quoted he says Akhenaten is Moses btw!!!] Anyhow, what I am interested to know (sidestepping for the moment Ahmed Osman’s radical contentions) is: is his quote about the Great nurse really to be found in Ay and Tey’s tomb, or is it just his peculiar take at translation, or maybe a vivid imagination getting the better of him? If the text exists and his translation accurate, it gives one much to think on!
 
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Oct 2011
24,340
Lago Maggiore, Italy
I am somewhat confused. We have 3 ‘traces’ of Nefertiti and Kiya... so what do these ‘traces’ correspond with in the names. I see no trace of ‘Nefertiti’ in ‘Kiya’, or vice versa...? What do the 3 traces (hieroglyphs) spell out? I see two vertical lines, and a Queen (?) fishing (?), and a crook or reed(?) These form part of the both the words (names) Nefertiti and Kiya? This would seem not to be the case, at least to me who cannot read hieroglyphs. Can you explain, because clearly I don’t understand the mechanics here.
No ... the Queen is not fishing ... she's handling a flower.

Here we've got a problem: if I cannot show what Reeves has noted, I cannot explain the point. But that drawing is copyrighted, so I cannot post it here.

I can try and explain: Reeves in his drawing [and I'm not aware of other Egyptologists doing the same, so we have to rely on Reeves] under the name of Meritaten puts faded signs ... three faded signs ... the determinative for name of Queen [the sitting woman handling a flower ... she's not fishing!], two vertical lines and a kind of flag.

Those signs are present in "Kiya" and in Nefertiti. In Nefertiti the "flag" has got two legs, not one [she has arrived: motion], but which is the real status of the inscription?
 
Jan 2017
3,061
Bendigo
No ... the Queen is not fishing ... she's handling a flower.

Here we've got a problem: if I cannot show what Reeves has noted, I cannot explain the point. But that drawing is copyrighted, so I cannot post it here.

I can try and explain: Reeves in his drawing [and I'm not aware of other Egyptologists doing the same, so we have to rely on Reeves] under the name of Meritaten puts faded signs ... three faded signs ... the determinative for name of Queen [the sitting woman handling a flower ... she's not fishing!], two vertical lines and a kind of flag.

Those signs are present in "Kiya" and in Nefertiti. In Nefertiti the "flag" has got two legs, not one [she has arrived: motion], but which is the real status of the inscription?
Still don’t understand! There are three traces shown in both names. Are these traces shared elements of their names? Edit: could that walking legs be a further amendment? Can Kiya and Nefertiti as words, with meanings, have a relation to each other in any sense???

As to my much edited post regards Tey being: ‘Great nurse, nourisher of the god, adorner of the king’, I have discovered other quotes, so Ahmed Osman did not create it. The quote goes all the way back to at least James Henry Breasted! I really want to know if that wording exists in relation to Tey. I could not find anything in Osirisnet relating to either of Ay’s tombs at Amarna or the VoK.
 
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