Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
2,194
Crows nest
Paragraph 1: The penis was missing from KV55 according to Bell. It was never located. Though it could have been easily overlooked considering the poor reputation of the excavators. I take your point about Tut. I now know it was missing to begin with but was located as you mention. NB Bell stated that penises are very durable and do not so readily disintegrate. Tut’s penis, though dislodged, might be a case in point. Bell is the expert on this, not me, of course.
I got crossed wires here as I knew about Tut but had not read Bell.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,246
Bendigo
I got crossed wires here as I knew about Tut but had not read Bell.
Thought so. Just clarified. All good. I am interested in the penis, I cannot lie. Was it removed deliberately in ancient times, as I suggested in an earlier post, or was it just mislaid/overlooked by Ayrton and Davis? I meant to pursue a discussion with you guys, but so many things of interest come up here on this thread, I got distracted, lol. With the possibility of disrespect shown to the mummy - and the removal of Tiye, which I think may very well have been the case - the removal of the penis (in ancient times) may have been a very pointed act of desecration.
 

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
2,194
Crows nest
Loret initially declared KV35YL to be a young man despite the absence of any genitalia. He did so on the basis that the features of the mummy and that it's general appearance suggested to him that it was male. Lack of genitals was not an issue as it was known that sometimes the internal organs were removed via the perineum, as was actually the case with KV35YL, though she also had an incision in her abdomen as well. But it would be normal for a males genitals to be left intact. In the case of KV55 it's a little difficult to take at face value anything in the initial reports. The examination of the remains that is usually quoted is that done by G.E Smith at a later date, and he was confronted with nothing but bare bones.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,246
Bendigo
Loret initially declared KV35YL to be a young man despite the absence of any genitalia. He did so on the basis that the features of the mummy and that it's general appearance suggested to him that it was male. Lack of genitals was not an issue as it was known that sometimes the internal organs were removed via the perineum, as was actually the case with KV35YL, though she also had an incision in her abdomen as well. But it would be normal for a males genitals to be left intact. In the case of KV55 it's a little difficult to take at face value anything in the initial reports. The examination of the remains that is usually quoted is that done by G.E Smith at a later date, and he was confronted with nothing but bare bones.
The idea of KV55 having his genitalia removed as an act of desecration is enticing, but it is clearly not the only possibility. Negligent archeology might be the simpler answer as we know. Yet, I remain enticed in my speculating. Even from a modern perspective, interfering with a man’s manhood would seem a very pointed act. I wonder if Pharaohs who came to the afterlife without a penis, emasculated that is, would have a happy eternity? Isn’t there some story in the mythology of some god’s penis being rescued by a goddess or similar? The penis was a potent symbol, surely.

Edit: Found an article in Live Science about Egyptologist Salima Ikram’s (tentative) speculation that Tut was found with an erect penis and without a heart, thus possibly suggesting identifying Tut with Osiris, and with the heart missing, like when Osiris’s heart had been buried away from his dismembered body. Tut was depicted as Osiris in the tomb elsewhere, as you guys will already no doubt know. Could KV55’s missing penis be linked symbolically to all this? Did Ay (or the priests, on their own volition) desecrate KV55 while emphasising Tut as Osiris, regegenerating the old religion (so to speak)?
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,683
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Generally they didn't remove the penis from a male mummy. Tutankhamen got mummified with the penis erected ... Salima Ikram evaluated this aspect among others. My personal impression is that it was a connection with the God Min. Now, a dead man cannot obtain a natural erection, this is obvious. So they managed to obtain an artificial erection.

The angle of almost 90° makes me think, without doubt, to God Min.

Had Ay a say about the mummification of King Tut? Probably, considering the detail of the penis [Ay came from Akhmin where the cult of Min was the principal one].
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,683
Lago Maggiore, Italy
@Ayrton, I see that you have noted Salima Ikram, I've got some works of her in my library [and you can see her on National Geographic]. My opinion is more in favor of a connection with Min than with Osiris [at least not direct].

In any case, if you find her works, read them. She writes in a very nice way. And, if you remember, when you asked me if I was going to write a book ... I told you that perhaps Salima was going to write it ...
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,246
Bendigo
Generally they didn't remove the penis from a male mummy. Tutankhamen got mummified with the penis erected ... Salima Ikram evaluated this aspect among others. My personal impression is that it was a connection with the God Min. Now, a dead man cannot obtain a natural erection, this is obvious. So they managed to obtain an artificial erection.

The angle of almost 90° makes me think, without doubt, to God Min.

Had Ay a say about the mummification of King Tut? Probably, considering the detail of the penis [Ay came from Akhmin where the cult of Min was the principal one].
And could Ay (as my favoured Pharoah for removing Tiye from KV55) have desecrated the KV55 mummy by having the penis removed? Or did the priests involved in entombing Tut and removing Tiye (from KV55) have done these ‘symbolic’ (?) acts without Ay’s knowledge even? I’m thinking not. If KV35YL was also originally in KV55 (along with KV35boy), then Ay was surely up to his eyeballs in deciding what was to be di e when Tut died.

Thinking in this a bit more: if KV35YL was originally in KV55, then whoever removed both she and Tiye, were aware they were removing him from the presence of their brother-husband and mother. If so, KV55 was surely on the nose with whoever removed them. For me, I smell Akhenaten yet again.

NB Isn’t Min associated with Akhmin?
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,246
Bendigo
@Ayrton, I see that you have noted Salima Ikram, I've got some works of her in my library [and you can see her on National Geographic]. My opinion is more in favor of a connection with Min than with Osiris [at least not direct].

In any case, if you find her works, read them. She writes in a very nice way. And, if you remember, when you asked me if I was going to write a book ... I told you that perhaps Salima was going to write it ...
Must keep a look out. I trust she writes in English, or there are translations!?

I noticed Min while looking up penises in ancient Egypt, I will promptly go back and read up a little on the subject. Cheers.



Edit: This connection of Min with Akhmim (and Coptos, but especially Akhmim for our purposes) is very interesting indeed. Ay, I believe, built a small temple or similar in Akhmim, didn’t he? Maybe the link to Min is a solid one, AlpinLuke. But, still, to Osiris, as Ikram suggests. It looks like one of those cases where gos, in certain forms, coukd be pretty much interchangeable and known by different names in different locations. The idea Ay would see to it Tut had an erect penis seems positively enticing. He was a pharaoh with his Min-Akhmim connections who might just do exactly that kind of unique thing. Would he see KV55 emasculated for similar reasons?

I get back to beating another of my horses: I think it a good theory to suggest that KV35 EL, YL, and boy were all in KV55 or neighbours, YL and boy being in KV63, at one stage. Ay removed all three. He moved them together to a location, perhaps the WV in with or nearby to Amenophis III even. Many, many years later, all three were moved ‘together’ to KV35. Maybe Amenophis III a part of this later move.

If so, as I stated a little earlier, it is more than curious that KV55’s mother and sister-spouse was moved away from him.
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,683
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Must keep a look out. I trust she writes in English, or there are translations!?

I noticed Min while looking up penises in ancient Egypt, I will promptly go back and read up a little on the subject. Cheers.



Edit: This connection of Min with Akhmim (and Coptos, but especially Akhmim for our purposes) is very interesting indeed. Ay, I believe, built a small temple or similar in Akhmim, didn’t he? Maybe the link to Min is a solid one, AlpinLuke. But, still, to Osiris, as Ikram suggests. It looks like one of those cases where gos, in certain forms, coukd be pretty much interchangeable and known by different names in different locations. The idea Ay would see to it Tut had an erect penis seems positively enticing. He was a pharaoh with his Min-Akhmim connections who might just do exactly that kind of unique thing. Would he see KV55 emasculated for similar reasons?

I get back to beating another of my horses: I think it a good theory to suggest that KV35 EL, YL, and boy were all in KV55 or neighbours, YL and boy being in KV63, at one stage. Ay removed all three. He moved them together to a location, perhaps the WV in with or nearby to Amenophis III even. Many, many years later, all three were moved ‘together’ to KV35. Maybe Amenophis III a part of this later move.

If so, as I stated a little earlier, it is more than curious that KV55’s mother and sister-spouse was moved away from him.
She is enough known to see her works translated in Italian, so I guess that they are available in English [I suppose that the original works are in English, I've got the Italian translations].

Yes, Ay built a little temple in honor of the God Min at Akhmin.

The chronology of the moves of the mummies is quite difficult to understand without certain temporal references. Anyway someone moved them.

In the meanwhile I've found an article commenting Ikram's hypothesis:

[King Tut's Mummified Erect Penis May Point to Ancient Religious Struggle]
The erect penis evokes Osiris' regenerative powers;
the black liquid made Tutankhamun's skin color resemble that of Osiris;
and the lost heart recalled the story of the god being cut to pieces by his brother Seth and his heart buried.
....

Ikram cautions that her idea is speculative, but, if correct,
it would help explain some of the mysteries surrounding Tutankhamun's mummification and burial.
Now, checking the representations of Osiris [and Isis], they used to depict Osiris with the penis erected [and Isis above it, in the form of a kite]. So Ikram's hypotesis gains points. The connection with God Min is in any case evident, but may be just at figurative level.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,246
Bendigo
She is enough known to see her works translated in Italian, so I guess that they are available in English [I suppose that the original works are in English, I've got the Italian translations].

Yes, Ay built a little temple in honor of the God Min at Akhmin.

The chronology of the moves of the mummies is quite difficult to understand without certain temporal references. Anyway someone moved them.

In the meanwhile I've found an article commenting Ikram's hypothesis:

[King Tut's Mummified Erect Penis May Point to Ancient Religious Struggle]


Now, checking the representations of Osiris [and Isis], they used to depict Osiris with the penis erected [and Isis above it, in the form of a kite]. So Ikram's hypotesis gains points. The connection with God Min is in any case evident, but may be just at figurative level.
That is pretty much what was in the article I read, and I agree, plausible.

As to the chronology of the movement of the mummies, I have some tentative ideas based on bits of evidence I have stumbled across awhile back and now revisit. My speculations. I do not state any of the following as proven in any way.


Exhibit A: - KV54 A piece of line with hieratic words (quoted from Wikipedia entry on KV54): ‘The Good God, Lord of the Two Lands, Nebkheperure, beloved of Min, Linen of Year 6’. (Interesting mention of Min!) So 3 or 4 years before Tut died. Why is this cache (KV54) in place? Linen!? Had someone died? (Btw How sure are we Tut ruled 10 years?) Or has it got to do with the removal of mummies from Amarna to KV? KV55 tomb would still be intact anyhow, if moved earlier. Tut would be about 16 in Year 6. Old enough to be part of a decision to move the mummies to KV? Ankhsenpaaten, his wife, would be. She would be around 19 or 20 (or more) by my rough calculation. Which leads on to:

Exhibit B: clay seals found in KV63 with partial nomen ‘...paaten’. Who else, but Ankhsenpaaten?! So, did Ankhsenpaaten have a role in moving the mummies (of at least Akhenaten and Tiye but likely other royals as well) to KV? Where did the other mummies go? Nefertiti for instance? KV55 or KV63 or that other possible tomb nearby that no one has excavated to confirm? Is Ankhsenpaaten the reason Ay did not act against Akhenaten’s memory? [I do wonder what happened to Nefertiti and Meritaten]

Exhibit C (not really an exhibit but we’ll it call it that): Stephen Cross’ Flood, suggests Tiye was moved from KV55 in Ay’s reign. I think KV35YL and KV35boy were moved from KV55 (and/or KV63?) at the same time. If I am guessing right, they were moved as a unit to Amenophis III’s tomb in the WV (I know some think Tiye at least was, and if Ay moved them he moved her/them somewhere and that would seem a good place*) and kept together as a unit through at least one more move long after that: to KV35. Now, Tut ends up with an erect penis, KV55 (possibly) ends up with none, and Ay dedicates a temple to Min in his home town. Hmmm?

*Incidentally, I have not given up on Nefertiti being Sitamun (not saying she is, not saying she isn’t). Tiye and Sitamun, according to Amenophis III’s wishes, were meant to be entombed with him, if I remember right. Well, maybe Ay fulfilled his wishes! The KV35boy? Prince Thutmose?!? With Mum and sister for eternity? Don’t see why not...

Last thought (for the moment): Tut dies after a fall. Ankhsenpaaten/Ankhsenpaaten, orders a Prince from Hatti, but the plan fails. Ay marries her to substantiate seizing the throne, has her quietly ‘removed’, and, due to Tuts sudden demise, buries him in a ‘family’ tomb. Ay seconds a tomb near enough to his beloved Amenophis III in the WV. To be near his king, his queen and their daughter, the daughter his wife Tey suckled as a babe in arms: Nefertiti..err...Sitamun... Perfect fit! (Lol).

Another last thought after the last last thought: KV63 has a shaft very remiscent of that of Yuya and Thuya. So the three ‘nobles’ tombs reused as royal tombs/caches, KV55, 62 and 63 (and 54?) might have been tombs owned by the Akhmin clan. That was handy considering events at the end of Akhenaten’s reign...

Now, where did I put my straight jacket?
 
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