Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,216
Lago Maggiore, Italy
I know we always get back to this, but the answer must be there staring at us. So let’s at what seems literal about events.

Nefertiti is called a Heriditary Princess. So, let’s play this straight and say, there is no reason to assume she was not a royal, and be one high in the chain.

She is not called king’s daughter or sister. So let’t play it straight again, and say, well, she was not a king’s daughter or sister.

So was she the daughter of another high royal? The daughter of a sister and/or brother of Amenophis III? Or the daughter of a son and/or daughter of Amenophis III? The fact that Nefertiti was chosen as Great Royal Spouse over a king’s daughter when she might have been of a collateral line seems interesting. And that Tiye remained deeply involved with management alongside Akhenaten and Nefertiti is intriguing. Akhenaten, Tiye and Nefertiti are certainly depicted playing happy families. This might just have been royal propaganda, but a king’s cousin taking precedence over Tiye’s own daughters seems fraught. Tiye, after all, seems to have been very powerful.

I also get back to Meritaten appearing very quickly after Akhenaten became Pharaoh as Amenophis IV. Why is this? Why does the ‘getting together’ with Nefertiti to produce Meritaten occur so closely after his accession? I think it is a very important issue to address. And why would he not have married a sister, even if he did not make her his Great Royal Spouse, when he took the throne? So, I go immediately full circle again: maybe he did but she changed her name and saw no reason to mention she was a king’s daughter or king’s sister, she was a Great Royal Spouse, with a born to rule attitude she got from her father - naturally - and her mother, the surprisingly prominent (and powerful?) Tiye!
If we start from what is known about Amenhotep III's sisters and daughters [leaving aside the doubt that "Sitamun" is an epithet which became a name], we have to consider the possibility that Nefertiti was the granddaughter of a Monarch, that is to say the daughter of a Hereditary Princess.This would have put her in a condition to carry the title and to be of a right age to become the Great Royal Wife of a son of Amenhotep III.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,663
Bendigo
If we start from what is known about Amenhotep III's sisters and daughters [leaving aside the doubt that "Sitamun" is an epithet which became a name], we have to consider the possibility that Nefertiti was the granddaughter of a Monarch, that is to say the daughter of a Hereditary Princess.This would have put her in a condition to carry the title and to be of a right age to become the Great Royal Wife of a son of Amenhotep III.
Amenophis III’s brother, Si-atum; is this an epithet too?

I plan to explore the idea I keep encountering that new horos throughout the 18th Dynasty took to wife the king’s daughter to stabstantiate their right to rule. Also, it would be nice to know if this is actually fact or fiction or persuasion...
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,216
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Amenophis III’s brother, Si-atum; is this an epithet too?

I plan to explore the idea I keep encountering that new horos throughout the 18th Dynasty took to wife the king’s daughter to stabstantiate their right to rule. Also, it would be nice to know if this is actually fact or fiction or persuasion...
"Si-Atum" is substantially equal to Sitamun as structure [it changes the deity].

The different is that Sitamun has been engraved as epithet of the name in the cartouche: "Sitamun [Sitamun]". It was really odd to see that. It was like to see Akhenaten [Akhenaten]. The caption equal to the name in the cartouche ... I cannot think to an other case.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,663
Bendigo
"Si-Atum" is substantially equal to Sitamun as structure [it changes the deity].

The different is that Sitamun has been engraved as epithet of the name in the cartouche: "Sitamun [Sitamun]". It was really odd to see that. It was like to see Akhenaten [Akhenaten]. The caption equal to the name in the cartouche ... I cannot think to an other case.
The more we know the less we know. It is intriguing.

Incidentally, I found a Meryre* who easing charge of nurses under Amenophis II who had a wife by name Baketamun. Should not surprise when I see familiar seeming names pop up together . We’re there there other ‘Bakets’ and ‘Bekets’ in the close royal circles of the time? Might mean nothing much, but might lead to further clues about the dynasty?

*I wonder if a Chief of Nurses might become head of a harim in time?
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,216
Lago Maggiore, Italy
The more we know the less we know. It is intriguing.

Incidentally, I found a Meryre* who easing charge of nurses under Amenophis II who had a wife by name Baketamun. Should not surprise when I see familiar seeming names pop up together . We’re there there other ‘Bakets’ and ‘Bekets’ in the close royal circles of the time? Might mean nothing much, but might lead to further clues about the dynasty?

*I wonder if a Chief of Nurses might become head of a harim in time?
A khekeret nisut [Royal Adorner] had very good probability to be the head of a Royal harim.

We have already met that title [The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive on the right]: Tey, Ay's wife, carried it.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,663
Bendigo
A khekeret nisut [Royal Adorner] had very good probability to be the head of a Royal harim.

We have already met that title [The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive on the right]: Tey, Ay's wife, carried it.
I was thinking of Meryre II as ‘Overseer of the Royal Harim’. And while I am looking at names, I found ‘Minemheb’, one of whom’s titles was Scribe of the Army or similar. I must go back and find him. Minemheb to Paatenemheb to Horemheb.... it would all be too good to be true, wouldn’t it!


Edit: ‘Min’ makes me think of Akhmin and Coptos... where was Horemheb thought to be from? There is that statue of Minemheb with a Baboon.... wasn’t there baboons in Ay and/or Tutankhamuns tomb? Can’t remember off hand. Just thinking (writing) aloud, my friend...

Edit 2: Curiouser and Curiouser! Minemheb was Chief of the works for the Jubilee Temple and Army scribe of the Lord of the Two Lands. Paatenemheb was Commander of the Troops and Overseer for the Works at Akhenaten... Horemheb was Chief Commander of the Army... Do I detect a course of promotions? Do I see a pre-Akhetaten identity, an Akhetaten identity, and a post-Akhetaten identity? Honestly, I think I might well do!
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,216
Lago Maggiore, Italy
I was thinking of Meryre II as ‘Overseer of the Royal Harim’. And while I am looking at names, I found ‘Minemheb’, one of whom’s titles was Scribe of the Army or similar. I must go back and find him. Minemheb to Paatenemheb to Horemheb.... it would all be too good to be true, wouldn’t it!


Edit: ‘Min’ makes me think of Akhmin and Coptos... where was Horemheb thought to be from? There is that statue of Minemheb with a Baboon.... wasn’t there baboons in Ay and/or Tutankhamuns tomb? Can’t remember off hand. Just thinking (writing) aloud, my friend...

Edit 2: Curiouser and Curiouser! Minemheb was Chief of the works for the Jubilee Temple and Army scribe of the Lord of the Two Lands. Paatenemheb was Commander of the Troops and Overseer for the Works at Akhenaten... Horemheb was Chief Commander of the Army... Do I detect a course of promotions? Do I see a pre-Akhetaten identity, an Akhetaten identity, and a post-Akhetaten identity? Honestly, I think I might well do!
Minemheb [Min is in jubilation] is a known personage from the time of Amenhotep III. So he lived in the right period. It's possible to see a continuity only if Horemheb started his career under Amenhotep III in the last phase of his reing and being quite young: the reign of Amenhotep III ended around 1350 BCE and Horemheb begun to rule about 30 years later. But he died after other 30 years ...

So we need to add at east 60 years to the age of Minemheb when Amenhotep III ended his reign. In case fo coregency and overlapping reigns, we could "save" 7-9 years which could be useful here.

It would be:

Minemheb = original name, saying something about his origins [Akhmin].
Paatenemheb = modified Atenist name under Akhenaten.
Horemheb = modified name after Akhenaten to gain the favor of the local Theban clergy [better to leave that reference to Min, an imported deity].
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,663
Bendigo
Minemheb [Min is in jubilation] is a known personage from the time of Amenhotep III. So he lived in the right period. It's possible to see a continuity only if Horemheb started his career under Amenhotep III in the last phase of his reing and being quite young: the reign of Amenhotep III ended around 1350 BCE and Horemheb begun to rule about 30 years later. But he died after other 30 years ...

So we need to add at east 60 years to the age of Minemheb when Amenhotep III ended his reign. In case fo coregency and overlapping reigns, we could "save" 7-9 years which could be useful here.

It would be:

Minemheb = original name, saying something about his origins [Akhmin].
Paatenemheb = modified Atenist name under Akhenaten.
Horemheb = modified name after Akhenaten to gain the favor of the local Theban clergy [better to leave that reference to Min, an imported deity].
Indeed. I see Amenophis III, Ay and Horemheb being around the same age; perhaps with Horemheb a little younger. A Coregency between Amenophis III and Akhenaten helps. A Coregency could make Akhenaten’s sole reign as little as five years with a twelve year Coregency or nine years if we have an eight year Coregency. The similarity in olds for Minemheb and Paatenemheb are quite surprising. To build the Jubilee Temple then oversee works at Akhenaten is interesting to say the least. Also the roles would take all the organisational abilities of an army man, one thinks.... As to any plausible connection to Akhmin, it would make sense to me that any many of Thuya and Yuyas clan would be favoured in official circles and administration. It has struck me some time that Horemheb was loyal toTut, though he may have had a falling out with Ay. Though if Mutmodjet is Ay’s sister, perhaps there was a close assiciation and alliance at one stage. This would make sense to me.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,216
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Probably the difference between Ay and Horemheb, about their initial career, was that Ay was a military officer because of social position ... Horemheb has demonstrated to be a real warrior.

This could suggest an explanation of Horemheb's behavior: he was a commander with a thing in his mind and that thing was clear: he was serving and this meant he had duties. Ay, even in his first tomb, showed the attitude of the politician, with all those social references for him and his wife. A politician says that his wife has been this or that ... a warrior says that he defeated Hittites here and there ...
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,663
Bendigo
Probably the difference between Ay and Horemheb, about their initial career, was that Ay was a military officer because of social position ... Horemheb has demonstrated to be a real warrior.

This could suggest an explanation of Horemheb's behavior: he was a commander with a thing in his mind and that thing was clear: he was serving and this meant he had duties. Ay, even in his first tomb, showed the attitude of the politician, with all those social references for him and his wife. A politician says that his wife has been this or that ... a warrior says that he defeated Hittites here and there ...
An alliance between Ay and Horemheb seems par for the course, the politician and his military heavy. Was Ay (maybe Thuya) the patron of Horemheb early in the younger man’s career? Though Ay I could well see as head of army close to the Pharaoh with Horemheb later coming to have authority over the army generally. The connection between being in charge of ‘works’ and of the ‘army’ seems close. Both require the disciplined surpervision of large groups of men set to specific purpose. I could see army officers and permanent troops surpervising workers building infrastructure projects. Which makes me wonder if Ay’s household troops/charioteers were permanents, while only Horemheb’s officers were permanents.

NB I am reminded that I read the other day that the god Min was closely akin to Horus. Interesting to see two men by name Minemheb and a Horemheb, one seemingly pre-Akhetaten and one post-Akhetaten (or, at the least, post Akhenaten). And, in between, a Paatenemheb, who bears the name of the cult at Akhetaten and seemingly only appearing during that period when Akhetaten was capital.... yes, I do tend to beat dead horses....
 
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