Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,220
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Sure Thuya is interesting and it's among what I call the "phonetic names", that is to say those names without an apparent meaning [and it's a difficult exercise of fantasy to attach a meaning to them]. This group of person with this kind of names [a group of persons in some way interconnected] is among the reasons why in this thread we have wondered if a real clan existed at Court [today we would use the word "lobby"]. We begun to mention the "clan of Akhmin". Without factual evidences, actually, just as a theoretical line of enquiry.
 
Likes: Ayrton

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,220
Lago Maggiore, Italy
After reading "The Name of Thuya", I can agree that such a name may be was a nickname or a foreign name. I could add that may be Thuya [and Yuya] were the result of the attempts of the scribes to translitterate foreign names into hieroglyphics. We could make a parallel thinking to how Egyptian names got distorted in the transliteration present in the "Amarna Letters".

Curiously enough, checking Hittite and Mitanni names on Jstor ...

[The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures
Vol. 26, No. 2 (Jan., 1910), pp. 96-104 (9 pages) Some Hittite and Mitannian Personal Names on JSTOR / Some Hittite and Mitannian Personal Names : Luckenbill, D. D. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive]

I've found the mention of Tu-u-ia [ref. KN 162,69]. But here the problem is well known: assonances between two different languages are always possible and they are not immediately a clue of the origin of a name.

Abot the hypothesis that "twtw" is a Hypocoristicon, it would be "one comes in peace" [according to Ranke, 1935] from twtw-ij-m-htp. Frankly speaking it seems a bit excessive.

In this work [The Alleged Indo-Iranian Names in Cuneiform Inscriptions : Clark, Walter Eugene : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive] the name is connected with Mitannian environments.
 
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Mar 2019
59
Ogden, Utah
The scene [which I snipped out of the whole picture] was from a time before the names of the Aten changed to the second set. Only the three eldest daughters are shown with Mutbeneret, whose name still shows the vulture sign for "mwt" that might have become anathema later, when "mwt" was written "mt". If memory serves, that's the way "mother" was spelled on the shrine of Queen Tiye [will check it out]. I believe I said previously here that only the royal children who had attained puberty were depicted with their heads fully covered. None of the three princesses have covered heads--although that of Mutbeneret seems to be, making her older than any of them. She is also shown as a bit taller than Meritaten. What I wonder about is the side-lock on the wig of Mutbeneret. Does it mean she's a princess--or is this some fashion? The daughters of Amenhotep III who are shown in the tomb of Kheruef at Thebes have this same side ornament. So perhaps Mutbeneret is just another younger one of the same, who came to live at Akhetaten with her mother, Tiye, like little Baketaten.
 

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Mar 2019
59
Ogden, Utah
Well, it's impossible to tell--maybe just a fashionable wig. The first image is of a couple of the daughters of Amenhotep III from the tomb of Kheruef. There are 16 depicted in all. The second image is from the same tomb in a different register and these girls are marked as the daughters of "great ones". I do not see much difference in their wigs. I recalled correctly about Queen Tiye's funerary shrine. "mwt" was spelled just "mt" at the far left there.
 

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Likes: Kyla
Mar 2019
59
Ogden, Utah
After reading "The Name of Thuya", I can agree that such a name may be was a nickname or a foreign name. I could add that may be Thuya [and Yuya] were the result of the attempts of the scribes to translitterate foreign names into hieroglyphics. We could make a parallel thinking to how Egyptian names got distorted in the transliteration present in the "Amarna Letters".
The name of Yuya is unique but that of Thuya is seen several times among the women of men who have tombs on the hill Sheikh Abd el Quen. When I placed the DNA of the two old people into a popaffiliator program, that of Yuya came back as "Eurasian" being a great likelihood but Thuya wasn't connected to this population according to the program. That's why I guessed she may have been related to the people with the tombs, the families of the viziers. Mitanni falls within the area of Eurasia and it would not surprise me if this land extended from northern Syria all the way east to Armenia. Mitanni also had contact with Afghanistan--or they would not have had lapis lazuli to send ti Egypt. As far as I know, that stone is found only in that land of Afghanistan. "twtw" could be a hypocorism for Tehuty. Tutu was prominent in the court of Akhenaten, seems to have been his physician. In Israel "Dudu" is a nickname for David. I have long harbored a suspicion that the name of the Biblical David was really more like it is in Arabic, which is Daoud. And that David was based on a famous character, General Tehuty of the time of Thutmose III. No way to prove it, of course. King David did not live close to the time of the general but I think some things from the latter were borrowed from an earlier person.
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,220
Lago Maggiore, Italy
The name of Yuya is unique but that of Thuya is seen several times among the women of men who have tombs on the hill Sheikh Abd el Quen. When I placed the DNA of the two old people into a popaffiliator program, that of Yuya came back as "Eurasian" being a great likelihood but Thuya wasn't connected to this population according to the program. That's why I guessed she may have been related to the people with the tombs, the families of the viziers. Mitanni falls within the area of Eurasia and it would not surprise me if this land extended from northern Syria all the way east to Armenia. Mitanni also had contact with Afghanistan--or they would not have had lapis lazuli to send ti Egypt. As far as I know, that stone is found only in that land of Afghanistan. "twtw" could be a hypocorism for Tehuty. Tutu was prominent in the court of Akhenaten, seems to have been his physician. In Israel "Dudu" is a nickname for David. I have long harbored a suspicion that the name of the Biblical David was really more like it is in Arabic, which is Daoud. And that David was based on a famous character, General Tehuty of the time of Thutmose III. No way to prove it, of course. King David did not live close to the time of the general but I think some things from the latter were borrowed from an earlier person.
We can go back to the composition of the Greek Tanakh. It happened in Hellenic Egypt. I wouldn't exclude Egyptian interpolations. We know that a "house of David" existed somewhere around the right age, but how can we be sure that the 70 wise men didn't "fill in the blanks" using historical Egyptian figures?

Arabs used the Coptic language adopting Egyptian names. I wouldn't be so surprised to discover that "David" in the Hellenic Tanakh is the sum of the traditional David [the one of the House of David] and an Egyptian personage. We should keep in mind that we haven't got an original Hebrew Tanakh.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,663
Bendigo
After reading "The Name of Thuya", I can agree that such a name may be was a nickname or a foreign name. I could add that may be Thuya [and Yuya] were the result of the attempts of the scribes to translitterate foreign names into hieroglyphics. We could make a parallel thinking to how Egyptian names got distorted in the transliteration present in the "Amarna Letters".

Curiously enough, checking Hittite and Mitanni names on Jstor ...

[The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures
Vol. 26, No. 2 (Jan., 1910), pp. 96-104 (9 pages) Some Hittite and Mitannian Personal Names on JSTOR / Some Hittite and Mitannian Personal Names : Luckenbill, D. D. : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive]

I've found the mention of Tu-u-ia [ref. KN 162,69]. But here the problem is well known: assonances between two different languages are always possible and they are not immediately a clue of the origin of a name.

Abot the hypothesis that "twtw" is a Hypocoristicon, it would be "one comes in peace" [according to Ranke, 1935] from twtw-ij-m-htp. Frankly speaking it seems a bit excessive.

In this work [The Alleged Indo-Iranian Names in Cuneiform Inscriptions : Clark, Walter Eugene : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive] the name is connected with Mitannian environments.
‘One comes in peace’, ‘the beautiful one has come’.... maybe not relevant, but could not help noticing.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,663
Bendigo
We can go back to the composition of the Greek Tanakh. It happened in Hellenic Egypt. I wouldn't exclude Egyptian interpolations. We know that a "house of David" existed somewhere around the right age, but how can we be sure that the 70 wise men didn't "fill in the blanks" using historical Egyptian figures?

Arabs used the Coptic language adopting Egyptian names. I wouldn't be so surprised to discover that "David" in the Hellenic Tanakh is the sum of the traditional David [the one of the House of David] and an Egyptian personage. We should keep in mind that we haven't got an original Hebrew Tanakh.
Rohl equates David with Dadua. (He is fond of the name game, too, as I am. And why not?) Osman equates David with Thutmose III (and Solomon with Amenophis III). Osmon may be on to something, but I suspect it is ‘borrowings’ by Biblical writers from Egypt, which, of course, you know I think is often the modus operandi of OT writers.

That Yuya, Thuya and Ay appear to have an Akhmim connection, does, as we have discussed many times, suggest a family grouping originating there. Of course, there may be a foreign element before that. Ay is Chief of chariots or similar. Could this suggest a family history that involves horses? Eurasia? Hittite? I suddenly think of that letter requesting a Hittite Prince. Could there have been a family connection of Amenophis III (and, later, a ‘queen’ of his direct line) with Hittite royalty. Is it possible that a connection between the Royal bloodlines of Kemet and Hatti have made the request less amazing than it currently seems?

Edit: Got a little distracted while I was typing. I meant to put forward the query: do we know of any trade or industry or suchlike in Akhmin that might suggest a connection with foreign parts? If the Akhmins were well to do foreigners to begin with, perhaps they created great wealth and prestige and power through a foreign connection? Horse breeding-trading immediately comes to mind, though that is just an imaginative suggestion, but maybe any other source of wealth and prestige creation?
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,220
Lago Maggiore, Italy
Rohl equates David with Dadua. (He is fond of the name game, too, as I am. And why not?) Osman equates David with Thutmose III (and Solomon with Amenophis III). Osmon may be on to something, but I suspect it is ‘borrowings’ by Biblical writers from Egypt, which, of course, you know I think is often the modus operandi of OT writers.

That Yuya, Thuya and Ay appear to have an Akhmim connection, does, as we have discussed many times, suggest a family grouping originating there. Of course, there may be a foreign element before that. Ay is Chief of chariots or similar. Could this suggest a family history that involves horses? Eurasia? Hittite? I suddenly think of that letter requesting a Hittite Prince. Could there have been a family connection of Amenophis III (and, later, a ‘queen’ of his direct line) with Hittite royalty. Is it possible that a connection between the Royal bloodlines of Kemet and Hatti have made the request less amazing than it currently seems?

Edit: Got a little distracted while I was typing. I meant to put forward the query: do we know of any trade or industry or suchlike in Akhmin that might suggest a connection with foreign parts? If the Akhmins were well to do foreigners to begin with, perhaps they created great wealth and prestige and power through a foreign connection? Horse breeding-trading immediately comes to mind, though that is just an imaginative suggestion, but maybe any other source of wealth and prestige creation?
I would go back for a moment ot "David". We've got only one potential source mentioning him in his own age. I say potential since there is a general consensus that the Stele discovered at Tel Dan is genuine, but it has been found out of its proper context and there are scholars who still debate regarding the language of the inscription and overall regarding that notorious "House of David".

Anyway, we've got only that stele as source near to when David would have lived, according to the Tradition. The origin of the stele is almost Canaanite, to be accurate it's Aramean. On it that "David" is "dwd". As usual the absence of vowels leaves a lot of room for speculations about the pronunciation.

Regarding foreign connections, the position of Akhmin [Khent Min] made it a nice center for traders coming from South [or heading South], so Nubians. And it was not so near to the Red Sea ... so that River Nile was the "highway" for the commerce of the city. But this aspect of that town has to be checked [so far I haven't pondered it].

Among other things, what we know from recent discoveries in the archaeological site is that Akhmin was an important religious center [A newly discovered edifice of Atum in Akhmim. Part of the necropolis of the primeval gods?, Gamal Abdel Nasser, ENIM 8, 2015, p. 187-221 « ENiM - Une revue d'égyptologie sur internet].
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,663
Bendigo
I would go back for a moment ot "David". We've got only one potential source mentioning him in his own age. I say potential since there is a general consensus that the Stele discovered at Tel Dan is genuine, but it has been found out of its proper context and there are scholars who still debate regarding the language of the inscription and overall regarding that notorious "House of David".

Anyway, we've got only that stele as source near to when David would have lived, according to the Tradition. The origin of the stele is almost Canaanite, to be accurate it's Aramean. On it that "David" is "dwd". As usual the absence of vowels leaves a lot of room for speculations about the pronunciation.

Regarding foreign connections, the position of Akhmin [Khent Min] made it a nice center for traders coming from South [or heading South], so Nubians. And it was not so near to the Red Sea ... so that River Nile was the "highway" for the commerce of the city. But this aspect of that town has to be checked [so far I haven't pondered it].

Among other things, what we know from recent discoveries in the archaeological site is that Akhmin was an important religious center [A newly discovered edifice of Atum in Akhmim. Part of the necropolis of the primeval gods?, Gamal Abdel Nasser, ENIM 8, 2015, p. 187-221 « ENiM - Une revue d'égyptologie sur internet].
Makes me think immediately of those Nubian wigs much discussed in relation to Tiye, Nefertiti, Kiya etc. With important trade with the south, perhaps we have Nubians there themselves?

As to David, maybe there was a brigand-type leader by name Dediah, and a son, Jedidiah, but much of their history, as discussed heretonow, were Egyptian borrowings (Thutmose III and Amenophis III predominantly).
 

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