Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Mar 2019
121
Ogden, Utah
Also, in the Amarna Letters, Tutu, the vizier of Akhenaton, is written "Dudu". It is my belief that the Tanakh is based on the annals of the kings of Judah and Israel, certainly written in Hebrew, and other sources, including the mysterious Book of Jasher. According to Ginzburg's "THe Legends of the Jews", the twenty-four book canon of the Hebrew Bible was fixed by Ezra and the scribes in the Second Temple Period. Those who worked on the LXX had to have something to go on besides Egyptian tales--but I think these had already been included in the Torah for sure.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,030
Bendigo
Also, in the Amarna Letters, Tutu, the vizier of Akhenaton, is written "Dudu". It is my belief that the Tanakh is based on the annals of the kings of Judah and Israel, certainly written in Hebrew, and other sources, including the mysterious Book of Jasher. According to Ginzburg's "THe Legends of the Jews", the twenty-four book canon of the Hebrew Bible was fixed by Ezra and the scribes in the Second Temple Period. Those who worked on the LXX had to have something to go on besides Egyptian tales--but I think these had already been included in the Torah for sure.
It seems to me the writers of the Bible, per se, were great accumulators of history and stories which were melded together with perspectives and history and stories of the times of the writers themselves. I know I am not saying anything new or startling here.

Regards ‘Dudu’, this puts a David (of sorts) at the time of Akhenaten. That is intriguing when I think of Rohl and his ‘Dadua’. Maybe no connection, but a Dadu in Egypt and a Dadua in Canaan (?) at the same time does sound a little tantalising. I sometimes wonder if some of Akhenaten’s innovations were also ‘borrowed’ by Biblical writers and included in the whole Solomon (Jedidiah, Amenophis III), David (Didiah [?], Thutmose III) and ‘One God’ package? If King David (Didiah?) for instance, was a brigand ancestor (perceived or actual) of Rehoboam, perhaps we might see Solomon/Jedidiah not as as Rehoboam’s father, but as an ancestor (borrowed or actual) harking back to the time of Amenophis III and Akhenaten?

[Note: I do not personally dismiss Rohl and Osmon out of hand, though I do not necessarily agree with all their thoughts, lol. Some, at least, of their researches seem reasonable to me, even if Rohls chronology and Osmons strict identifications of David as Thutmose III and Solomon as Amenophis III may be dubious - though my mind remains open].
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,946
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Makes me think immediately of those Nubian wigs much discussed in relation to Tiye, Nefertiti, Kiya etc. With important trade with the south, perhaps we have Nubians there themselves?

As to David, maybe there was a brigand-type leader by name Dediah, and a son, Jedidiah, but much of their history, as discussed heretonow, were Egyptian borrowings (Thutmose III and Amenophis III predominantly).
The stele found at Tel Dan contains just a mention of a "house of David", nothing more. There are no details about the founder of that "house". So we cannot be sure that this "dwd" was a Canaanite as for origin or a foreigner [an Egyptian?] who became a local ruler in Canaan.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,946
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Also, in the Amarna Letters, Tutu, the vizier of Akhenaton, is written "Dudu". It is my belief that the Tanakh is based on the annals of the kings of Judah and Israel, certainly written in Hebrew, and other sources, including the mysterious Book of Jasher. According to Ginzburg's "THe Legends of the Jews", the twenty-four book canon of the Hebrew Bible was fixed by Ezra and the scribes in the Second Temple Period. Those who worked on the LXX had to have something to go on besides Egyptian tales--but I think these had already been included in the Torah for sure.
My knowledge of the Jewish environment makes me say that the Torah is an essential milestone of the Tradition. History tells me that this predates for sure the Hellenic version of the Tanakh. So I would make a difference between the Torah and the Tanakh as for main contents.

The problem is about details and personages. The letters from Elephantine [a translation of one of them Passover Letter] demonstrate that there was a Tradition about the Pesah [ פסח ]. Nothing else. The details of the Exodus appear in the version of the 70. The biblical books found in the site of the Dead Sea Scrolls are not so ancient [so they could be copies of the version of the 70] or almost contemporary [so it's really difficult to demonstrate that A came before of B].
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,030
Bendigo
My knowledge of the Jewish environment makes me say that the Torah is an essential milestone of the Tradition. History tells me that this predates for sure the Hellenic version of the Tanakh. So I would make a difference between the Torah and the Tanakh as for main contents.

The problem is about details and personages. The letters from Elephantine [a translation of one of them Passover Letter] demonstrate that there was a Tradition about the Pesah [ פסח ]. Nothing else. The details of the Exodus appear in the version of the 70. The biblical books found in the site of the Dead Sea Scrolls are not so ancient [so they could be copies of the version of the 70] or almost contemporary [so it's really difficult to demonstrate that A came before of B].
The whole business of the Torah and Tanakh lies pretty much above my head... but on a simpler thing:

Looked up Wikipedia page ‘David (name)’ and mention is made there of a modern Jewish hypocorism, ‘Dudi’. Makes me think immediately of Marianne’s ‘Dudu’. NB when I mention Didiah as a possible version of David, I only do so because of Jedidiah (Solomon), his purported son. I just wonder if ‘Didiah’ and ‘David’ are versions of the same name?
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,030
Bendigo
The stele found at Tel Dan contains just a mention of a "house of David", nothing more. There are no details about the founder of that "house". So we cannot be sure that this "dwd" was a Canaanite as for origin or a foreigner [an Egyptian?] who became a local ruler in Canaan.
Could be ‘House of Tut’ for all we know. Local ruler or Egyptian overlord? King David, or, more accurately, King Thutmoses?
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,946
Italy, Lago Maggiore
The whole business of the Torah and Tanakh lies pretty much above my head... but on a simpler thing:

Looked up Wikipedia page ‘David (name)’ and mention is made there of a modern Jewish hypocorism, ‘Dudi’. Makes me think immediately of Marianne’s ‘Dudu’. NB when I mention Didiah as a possible version of David, I only do so because of Jedidiah (Solomon), his purported son. I just wonder if ‘Didiah’ and ‘David’ are versions of the same name?
As an aside light note, on a forum of comparative theology a poster with some knowledge of Canaanite and Aramaic language made me note that "dwd" could be read also as ... "Dude".

What about "King Dude"?
Well, I mean ... "Dude and Goliath" ... it doesn't sound that great!


But, humor a part, we've got a Coptic-Arab path to follow [let's leave the Hellenic path a part for now]. As for I know [I've got a copy of the Koran as well] they call David ... "Dawud", that dwd is evidently the root [this is a meaningful clue that the "dwd" of the stele from Tel Dan is the Dawud of the Koran and of the Tradition].

The main point here is how they transliterate a "t" into a "d" [or the other way round]. And it's not something easy to understand today.

P.S. on that forum that guy was joking [evidently!].
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
25,946
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Also, in the Amarna Letters, Tutu, the vizier of Akhenaton, is written "Dudu". It is my belief that the Tanakh is based on the annals of the kings of Judah and Israel, certainly written in Hebrew, and other sources, including the mysterious Book of Jasher. According to Ginzburg's "THe Legends of the Jews", the twenty-four book canon of the Hebrew Bible was fixed by Ezra and the scribes in the Second Temple Period. Those who worked on the LXX had to have something to go on besides Egyptian tales--but I think these had already been included in the Torah for sure.
The mention of Tutu is interesting and it requires a bit of research. This weekend I will make my homework.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,030
Bendigo
As an aside light note, on a forum of comparative theology a poster with some knowledge of Canaanite and Aramaic language made me note that "dwd" could be read also as ... "Dude".

What about "King Dude"?
Well, I mean ... "Dude and Goliath" ... it doesn't sound that great!


But, humor a part, we've got a Coptic-Arab path to follow [let's leave the Hellenic path a part for now]. As for I know [I've got a copy of the Koran as well] they call David ... "Dawud", that dwd is evidently the root [this is a meaningful clue that the "dwd" of the stele from Tel Dan is the Dawud of the Koran and of the Tradition].

The main point here is how they transliterate a "t" into a "d" [or the other way round]. And it's not something easy to understand today.

P.S. on that forum that guy was joking [evidently!].
What about ‘Dude and Gelati’! 😎

Mind, those two could be just as easily friends as enemies...

I guess if you are part of an Egyptian empire, a local ruler might adopt an Egyptian name, local version of it, of course.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,030
Bendigo
I would go back for a moment ot "David". We've got only one potential source mentioning him in his own age. I say potential since there is a general consensus that the Stele discovered at Tel Dan is genuine, but it has been found out of its proper context and there are scholars who still debate regarding the language of the inscription and overall regarding that notorious "House of David".

Anyway, we've got only that stele as source near to when David would have lived, according to the Tradition. The origin of the stele is almost Canaanite, to be accurate it's Aramean. On it that "David" is "dwd". As usual the absence of vowels leaves a lot of room for speculations about the pronunciation.

Regarding foreign connections, the position of Akhmin [Khent Min] made it a nice center for traders coming from South [or heading South], so Nubians. And it was not so near to the Red Sea ... so that River Nile was the "highway" for the commerce of the city. But this aspect of that town has to be checked [so far I haven't pondered it].

Among other things, what we know from recent discoveries in the archaeological site is that Akhmin was an important religious center [A newly discovered edifice of Atum in Akhmim. Part of the necropolis of the primeval gods?, Gamal Abdel Nasser, ENIM 8, 2015, p. 187-221 « ENiM - Une revue d'égyptologie sur internet].
Akhmim was a major centre for making linen from flax and stonework, I see, along with Thebes and Memphis. Don’t know if this has any particular importance in our search, but clearly it was no backwater.
 

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