Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,160
Bendigo
I have made an other composition, putting all toghether.
View attachment 20577
I have been poking around in the coals - as usual - and I found that woman with the flower. Appears it is a diadem she is wearing and that it indicates a Queen. What does this imply about Tiye and Tey’s names according to time and space? Is it simply that they are shown with this hieroglyph when they were already Queens, and if they are found without a diadem and flower, that indicates a time before they were Queens?

Hey! Is Tey shown in Ay’s tomb as a queen or as a mere woman??? That tomb where she is Nefertiti’s nurse, I mean.
 
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Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,160
Bendigo
Citing Wikipedia: Tey


1560297566384.jpeg
Chapel at Akhmim.

How is her name presented in Ay’s Amarna tomb?

Edit: Ay’s tomb (citing Osirisnet):

Is that Tey down on the bottom right - not as Queen, just a ‘woman’ in the hieroglyphs? Would make sense. The one mentioning Nefertiti, do we have those hieroglyphs/picture to look at? (Is Tey the commoner and Ay the one with royal blood?)


1560298121992.jpeg
 
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Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,160
Bendigo
Off on another tangent: has Akhenaten’s Durbar ever been thought of as s simple plain old Heb-Sed? If so, why do we keep calling it a Heb-sed?

Edit: Sed festival linked to the wolf god, I see. Thanks Wikipedia, my trusty friend. So it was a ‘jubilee’. A whole new thing, or just a Heb Sed without the wolf? Still, it is a curiousity? Why the big deal in Year 12? What is it marking? I know what Cyril Aldred thought but...? It does indicate the realm was not broke to me. And all that foreign tribute! Things can’t have been that bad in the empire? Ronald Ridley, I note, saw nothing particularly wrong going on in the foreign parts of the empire. Just the same old tribal chieftain/petty king carry on and suchlike...
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,245
Italy, Lago Maggiore
I have been poking around in the coals - as usual - and I found that woman with the flower. Appears it is a diadem she is wearing and that it indicates a Queen. What does this imply about Tiye and Tey’s names according to time and space? Is it simply that they are shown with this hieroglyph when they were already Queens, and if they are found without a diadem and flower, that indicates a time before they were Queens?

Hey! Is Tey shown in Ay’s tomb as a queen or as a mere woman??? That tomb where she is Nefertiti’s nurse, I mean.
Regarding the "flower" it modifies the determinative for "woman" or "name of woman", which is a sitting woman. When the sitting woman has got a flower it's "name of queen". It's not said that a queen always show that determinative [she can show simply the one for "name of woman" ... in a cartouche the flower is superfluous, just to say, but usually if the determinative was present it was the sitting woman with flower].

About Tey in Ay's tomb, since Ay was a not Royal, his wife hadn't the right to show that determinative and in fact she showed the one of "woman".

tey.JPG
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,245
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Probably pursuing this needlessly. The diadem and flower seem to mean ‘queen’? Though would any king’s wife have that flower (and/or) diadem? That is: secondary wives too?
Only Great Royal Wives showed that flower for sure. As for we can see on the finds with the name "Kiya", she didn't show the flower [she wasn't a Royal Wife]. It should be more proper to say that the determinative shows a "Royal Wife with flower", since there was a reduced version [the one showed by Kiya] which was just a sitting woman with diadem. I have to check if also Royal Wives were supposed to show the flower.

A curious case was Iset [daughter of Amenhotep III]. Here Iset (daughter of Amenhotep III) - Wikipedia we can see her introduced as Royal Daughter, but showing the determinative of Queen's name ... she had already got married with the father.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,160
Bendigo
Regarding the "flower" it modifies the determinative for "woman" or "name of woman", which is a sitting woman. When the sitting woman has got a flower it's "name of queen". It's not said that a queen always show that determinative [she can show simply the one for "name of woman" ... in a cartouche the flower is superfluous, just to say, but usually if the determinative was present it was the sitting woman with flower].

About Tey in Ay's tomb, since Ay was a not Royal, his wife hadn't the right to show that determinative and in fact she showed the one of "woman".

View attachment 20615
If Yuya was related to Amenophis III and Tiye, therefore was related to Amenophis III, then maybe it is Ay who has royal blood? He seems to hold similar titles to Yuya as we know. The fact he could claim the throne, and his closeness to Nefertiti since she was a child, does suggest a family connection to me. I read somewhere along time ago (goodness, it might have been one of David Rohl’s books!) that sons followed father’s in careers, with the father serving the pharaoh, and the son serving the Crown Prince. In a sense, the pharaoh and Crown Prince ran different households, as if the Prince was in training or similar, likewise the heirs of officials.

I guess we have not excluded Tey as being of the royal family, nor proved she was.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,245
Italy, Lago Maggiore
If Yuya was related to Amenophis III and Tiye, therefore was related to Amenophis III, then maybe it is Ay who has royal blood? He seems to hold similar titles to Yuya as we know. The fact he could claim the throne, and his closeness to Nefertiti since she was a child, does suggest a family connection to me. I read somewhere along time ago (goodness, it might have been one of David Rohl’s books!) that sons followed father’s in careers, with the father serving the pharaoh, and the son serving the Crown Prince. In a sense, the pharaoh and Crown Prince ran different households, as if the Prince was in training or similar, likewise the heirs of officials.

I guess we have not excluded Tey as being of the royal family, nor proved she was.
My impression is that, considering the titles carried by Tey, I actually think that she was the real noble, while Ay, getting married with her, gained a higher social status [which probably helped him in his career at Court].
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,160
Bendigo
Only Great Royal Wives showed that flower for sure. As for we can see on the finds with the name "Kiya", she didn't show the flower [she wasn't a Royal Wife]. It should be more proper to say that the determinative shows a "Royal Wife with flower", since there was a reduced version [the one showed by Kiya] which was just a sitting woman with diadem. I have to check if also Royal Wives were supposed to show the flower.

A curious case was Iset [daughter of Amenhotep III]. Here Iset (daughter of Amenhotep III) - Wikipedia we can see her introduced as Royal Daughter, but showing the determinative of Queen's name ... she had already got married with the father.
That depiction shows her as GRW. I wonder if Sitamun was still GRW? We have that kohl tube with her as GRW in Year 30, but I know nothing after that date.
 

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