Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
I have pretty much convinced myself Ankhkheperure Smenkhkare is Nefertiti. It ticks a lot of boxes for me and makes plain sense IMO. Two different Pharaohs with identical throne names, both ruling in immediate proximity in time? Nah! And that is just tip of the iceberg. Anyway - Humour me here, folks.

Who was responsible for Akhenaten’s burial?

Around his sarcophagus were four images of Nefertiti as protective goddess.
The coffin he was found in (yes, KV55 IMO) had a ‘female’ touch, so to speak. Gardiner suggested Nefertiti as the female. Others suggest Kiya. (As I currently think Kiya and Nefertiti as one and the same, I accept either for the time being).
It was a rishi coffin, as Kyla suggested to me, and could have been used for males or females.
Early form of the Aten on it? You know, I am a little dubious about this early and late business. But, accepting it, a coffin around Year 8 or 9, can make it work IMO. Burials were planned well ahead of time.

Anyway, I think Nefertiti has her fingerprints all over Akhenaten’s burial AND KV55coffin is his original coffin. (I’ll let you know when I change my mind - give me five minutes. 😎)
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
Yes ... Amenhotep II begun his reign around 1428 BCE and he left the throne around 1397 BCE.

To follow Akhenaten to Akhetaten he had to live at least until 1344 - 1343 BCE [just to die a bit after the arrival of the Court].

There is a gap of at least 53 years.

My guess is that Any was well above 70 when he moved to Akhetaten.
Regards Any and Aakheperure Amenophis (II). Post 2253.

If Any (Ani?) became Steward even at the end of Aakheperure Amenophis II’s reign, say, aged 18 years old, his many years as Steward of Amenophis II? We’ll start at 18 years old at the beginning of Thutmose IV’s reign.

Thutmose IV 10 years. Any by then 28.
Amenophis III. 39 years. Any by then 67.
Any’s tomb has late form of Aten in it. After Year 9...? Any by Year 9, 76 years old minimal?

Thing is, he could have been years older. We are probably looking at 76 bare minimum? For the times, talk about venerable. A Coregency between Amenophis III and Akhenaten would help, maybe.

I wonder if we can find mention of Any in Amenophis II’s reign? Indeed, in Thutmose IV and/or Amenophis III’s reign?

NB I am beginning to think we need a mathematician to join our Thread Team. I reckon someone with a maths head might be able to make a contribution on estimating ages of players and sums on Coregency issues. 🤓
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,175
Italy, Lago Maggiore
About Any, we could start from the tomb in Akhetaten. Immediately there is a rare characteristic: a portico outside. To have such an architectural structure in a rock tomb was rare and expensive. Overall in the case of a not Royal burial site. The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

May be this is the reason why the final result wasn't exceptional [a cheap architect?]. Anyway the presence of the portico qualifies that tomb as superior to the others.

Anyway, if we go to the inscriptions, it's a meaningful evidence that he mentions only Aakheperure among the predecessors of Akhenaten. The impression is that he had been steward only of that Monarch [otherwise we would have read a list of Sovereigns]. This is not surprising. A steward was a manager of estates and it wasn't obvious that a new Monarch obtained the estates of the family of a previous one. Just to say, It's more easy for a vizier to pass from a Monarch to an other [why to change a Prime Minister if the Monarch changes? Continuity is always a positive asset for the government of a country].

About the stelae [right page The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive], the authors list ...
1. Pakha
2. Nebwawi
3. Any-men
4. Thay
5. May [Ptahmay]
6. Ay [picture The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive]
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
About Any, we could start from the tomb in Akhetaten. Immediately there is a rare characteristic: a portico outside. To have such an architectural structure in a rock tomb was rare and expensive. Overall in the case of a not Royal burial site. The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

May be this is the reason why the final result wasn't exceptional [a cheap architect?]. Anyway the presence of the portico qualifies that tomb as superior to the others.

Anyway, if we go to the inscriptions, it's a meaningful evidence that he mentions only Aakheperure among the predecessors of Akhenaten. The impression is that he had been steward only of that Monarch [otherwise we would have read a list of Sovereigns]. This is not surprising. A steward was a manager of estates and it wasn't obvious that a new Monarch obtained the estates of the family of a previous one. Just to say, It's more easy for a vizier to pass from a Monarch to an other [why to change a Prime Minister if the Monarch changes? Continuity is always a positive asset for the government of a country].

About the stelae [right page The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive], the authors list ...
1. Pakha
2. Nebwawi
3. Any-men
4. Thay
5. May [Ptahmay]
6. Ay [picture The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive]
I have been doing a little research into Any and have already checked your links. Ay, his Servant, caught my attention a few days ago. He is marked only as ‘servant’. But I wonder about where our pharaoh Ay came from in the early days. Was he originally a Servant of Any’s? I bring this up because of the Stele mentioning an Ay and the mere proximity of the tombs of Ay and Any. Details like this often attract my curiousity.

Just in the last day or so been reading up about the role of Vizier (tjaty?), even though ‘chamberlain’ I have seen may be a better description, as vizier may be a Turkish term. Anyway, Viziers I noticed were often enough members of the royal family through parts, at least, of ancient Egyptian history. Stewards too? Jobs for trusted family members?

Any, to still be respected so long after Amenophis II was off the scene, is a curious thing (to me). What was he doing all that time? Did members of his family still perform roles within the ‘Royal administration’, so to speak? Was Any an elderly ‘mentor’ to his children in Akhenaten’s time? A family elder statesman? Was Ay a relative? Was Any a royal relation?

NB The issue of officials and their roles is now a matter for my attention. I have started a list of officials names and roles. Finding out alittle about Aperel/Aperia and a chap called Qenamon (friend from childhood and milk brother of Amenophis II) has piqued my interest. Both Aperel and Aenanon were styled ‘Gods Father’. Not just Yuya and Ay then! Father in law or honorific of some kind? I think the latter. Was ‘God’s father’ attached to a specific official role, I wondered. Still wondering.

As you know, I have had an interest in who was who before they went to Akhetaten, but I am beginning to poke around more broadly in the area of officials from Amenophis II to Ramesses I/Seti 1.... ... ... For example:Ramose and Suti or Satau go listed in tombs at Amarna, but Wikipedia offers nothing on their history, just some official titles. Ramose, a general, seems a candidate for Ramesses I for me. Surely, being around Horemheb’s age, he was somewhere at the heart of power during the reign of Akhenaten, just as Horemheb-Paatenemheb was? I don’t subscribe too readily to the idea powerful figures appear out of the blue. All powerful people have a history IMO, generally histories of advancement. [This is why I think Nefertiti was very, very important, even as a young girl, citing Ay’s tomb. She did not appear out of the blue and become as prominent as she was so early in Akhenaten’s reign. She was already a big ‘someone’ when Akhenaten took her as wife IMO].
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,175
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Well, we should try and orientate ourselves a bit. A votive stela can remember something. As you can note on the others it happens that the personages present an activity [there is the charioteer, for example, who probably was Any's charioteer]. Ay presents himself as a servant. If this "Ay" is the future Monarch, we should wonder when ... When the votive stela got prepared Ay ["our" Ay] was at Court, "companion" of Akhenaten, God's Father and overseer of the horses of the Sovereign.

In my opinion, if he is that Ay, that stela could be a clue to understand a bit the origin of Ay [and an other clue that Ay wasn't that noble himself]. He had a past as servant in the rich house of Any.

Unfortunately Davies and Garis don't report votive stelae from the tomb of Ay. [The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive]. I have to check if in other sources there is something about this common aspect of those tombs. It wasn't impossible that, while they were preparing their tombs, if the two guys knew one each other, they exchanged votive stelae.

But Any could give us an other kind of clue ... so you remember that I suspect that Nefertiti and her sister [Hereditary Princesses] were granddaughters of a previous Monarch? Isn't it curious that the steward of Amenhotep II, after a long period of inactivity at Court, becomes Royal Scribe and Fan Bearer under Akhenaten?

If we follow the Any's path ... we reach Amenhotep II and his daughter Iaret [and Thutmose IV ...]. So we could even think that Nefertiti & sister were granddaughters of Thutmose IV and Great granddaughters of Amenhotep II .... not a bad pedigree.
 
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Nov 2016
757
Germany
Nefertiti was very, very important, even as a young girl, citing Ay’s tomb. She did not appear out of the blue and become as prominent as she was so early in Akhenaten’s reign. She was already a big ‘someone’ when Akhenaten took her as wife IMO].
Considering the theory that I adhere (as I recently wrote) that the Amarna Atenism is originally a product of the House of Yuya (Akhenaten´s mother Tije, her brother Ay and his daughter Nefertiti), I find it significant that Nefertiti's full name, as Amarna texts show, already contained the name of Aten (Nfr-nfr.w-jtn = Beautiful is the Beauty of Aten) BEFORE Amenophis IV changed his name to Akhenaten in year 5 of his reign.

Ay had been the most important advisor and religious visionary at the court of Amenophis III and probably had what it takes to design - in cooperation with his sister Tije - a religious policy course for the young royal couple which the two young people enthusiastically followed because it was very accommodating to their youthful narcissism (Amarna Atenism is excessively narcissistic). But this is just a theory to be worked out, especially regarding the exact role the young king played in it.
 
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Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
Considering the theory that I adhere that the Amarna Atenism is originally a product of the House of Yuya (Akhenaten´s mother Tije, her brother Ay and his daughter Nefertiti), I find it fitting that Nefertiti's full name, as the Amarna letters show, already contained the name of Aten (Nfr-nfr.w-jtn = Beautiful is the Beauty of Aten) BEFORE Amenophis IV changed his name to Akhenaten in year 5 of his reign.

Ay had been the most important advisor and religious visionary at the court of Amenophis III and probably had what it takes to design - in cooperation with his sister Tije - a religious policy course for the young royal couple which the two young people enthusiastically followed because it was very accommodating to their youthful narcissism (royal Atenism is excessively narcissistic). But this is just a theory to be worked out, especially regarding the exact role the young king played in it.
Paragraph 1: Funnily enough, I was only chatting with Kyla the other day about Nefertiti’s name change occuring BEFORE Akhenaten’s. Spooky. I suspect ‘Nefertiti Nefernefeuaten’ appeared as a unit from the start and was an early - the earliest? - example of Aten name changing and name choice. I only in the last day or so wondered to Kyla if Nefertitinwas actually quite a few years older than Akhenaten - thinking of Sitamun and the math regarding her birth and the chances of her being Nefertiti AND being a prime mover of the innovation. And now I wonder, just in the ast hour or so, as I have just been reading about Petrie thinking Akhenaten was 12 when he ascended the throne and that Tiye was his mentor! Tiye and his quite older sister, Nefertiti/Sitamun leading the way in the early days of Atenism? My thoughts do wander. Especially as I suspect Kiya is Nefertiti. It all seems absurd. But truth can be stranger than fiction, it’s said.

Paragraph 2: An interesting theory. Please pursue and keep us updated. The answers are out there somewhere. Thinking ‘out there’ is something I actually encourage. So long as one looks for facts to support the ideas while not ignoring facts that don’t. I think of this Thread as a think tank, or an investigative team, or both. All ideas should be analysed and discussed, not dismissed out of hand. IMO, anyway.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
Well, we should try and orientate ourselves a bit. A votive stela can remember something. As you can note on the others it happens that the personages present an activity [there is the charioteer, for example, who probably was Any's charioteer]. Ay presents himself as a servant. If this "Ay" is the future Monarch, we should wonder when ... When the votive stela got prepared Ay ["our" Ay] was at Court, "companion" of Akhenaten, God's Father and overseer of the horses of the Sovereign.

In my opinion, if he is that Ay, that stela could be a clue to understand a bit the origin of Ay [and an other clue that Ay wasn't that noble himself]. He had a past as servant in the rich house of Any.

Unfortunately Davies and Garis don't report votive stelae from the tomb of Ay. [The rock tombs of El Amarna : Davies, Norman de Garis, 1865-1941 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive]. I have to check if in other sources there is something about this common aspect of those tombs. It wasn't impossible that, while they were preparing their tombs, if the two guys knew one each other, they exchanged votive stelae.

But Any could give us an other kind of clue ... so you remember that I suspect that Nefertiti and her sister [Hereditary Princesses] were granddaughters of a previous Monarch? Isn't it curious that the steward of Amenhotep II, after a long period of inactivity at Court, becomes Royal Scribe and Fan Bearer under Akhenaten?

If we follow the Any's path ... we reach Amenhotep II and his daughter Iaret [and Thutmose IV ...]. So we could even think that Nefertiti & sister were granddaughters of Thutmose IV and Great granddaughters of Amenhotep II .... not a bad pedigree.
I would add, Ay offers a lotus flower. Signifying that Any was dead?

Nefertiti as grand daughter of Thutmose IV etc. is not out of our sights yet! And nor is Beketaten as KV35YL. The DNA says sister of Akhenaten, and Beketaten was, but Nefertiti still has a question mark above her as she is not mentioned S Kings sister or daughter. This has always concerned me even if KV35YL as Nefertiti ticks other boxes for me. Those scenes of Akhenaten and Nefertitiband daughters and Tiye and ‘kings daughter’ Beketaten remain in calculations. Why was Akhenaten leading Tiye and Beketaten into the temple? To Atenise them? To take Beketaten as a secondary wife? I still have not gone off speculating about Sitamun as Nefertiti, but I keep finding apparent obstacles! It’s the maths, you see. Baketaten being mother of Tut and ending up with Tiye makes sense as it stands. We know for sure she was Akhenaten’s sister for a start. And maybe Nefertiti might have a motive for murdering her... who knows? Beketaten might surely think her son a better and more immediate heir to the throne than Nefertiti. Even if Nefertiti was her sister. Trouble might have brewed in the House!

Nefertiti, I maintain, was very, very important from the beginning. And probably ‘Kiya’ to begin with. Both Kiya and Nefertiti, I feel obliged to mention again, are neither of them called king’s daughter or sister... but that does not prove anything, just suggests a problem, especially if they are one individual and they are Sitamun. But grand daughter of Thutmose IV can work too, I don’t dismiss that idea in the least.

I go around in circles again. Yet, I keep a look out for new clues among the ashes!
 
Mar 2019
213
Peterborough, Ontario Canada
I would add, Ay offers a lotus flower. Signifying that Any was dead?

Nefertiti as grand daughter of Thutmose IV etc. is not out of our sights yet! And nor is Beketaten as KV35YL. The DNA says sister of Akhenaten, and Beketaten was, but Nefertiti still has a question mark above her as she is not mentioned S Kings sister or daughter. This has always concerned me even if KV35YL as Nefertiti ticks other boxes for me. Those scenes of Akhenaten and Nefertitiband daughters and Tiye and ‘kings daughter’ Beketaten remain in calculations. Why was Akhenaten leading Tiye and Beketaten into the temple? To Atenise them? To take Beketaten as a secondary wife? I still have not gone off speculating about Sitamun as Nefertiti, but I keep finding apparent obstacles! It’s the maths, you see. Baketaten being mother of Tut and ending up with Tiye makes sense as it stands. We know for sure she was Akhenaten’s sister for a start. And maybe Nefertiti might have a motive for murdering her... who knows? Beketaten might surely think her son a better and more immediate heir to the throne than Nefertiti. Even if Nefertiti was her sister. Trouble might have brewed in the House!

Nefertiti, I maintain, was very, very important from the beginning. And probably ‘Kiya’ to begin with. Both Kiya and Nefertiti, I feel obliged to mention again, are neither of them called king’s daughter or sister... but that does not prove anything, just suggests a problem, especially if they are one individual and they are Sitamun. But grand daughter of Thutmose IV can work too, I don’t dismiss that idea in the least.

I go around in circles again. Yet, I keep a look out for new clues among the ashes!

What if Tut and his mother died in the same skirmish or chariot/horse accident? We tend to speak of KV35YL as if she died prior to Tut , however, both bodies show signs of pre-mortem injuries consistent with horses and chariots.

The scenes in the tombs tell us that this family loved chariots (perhaps due to Ay’s Influence as Master of Charioteers?), and it’s logical that they died due to separate accidents but it is intriguing to think that it is possible they died at the same time.

This wouldn’t work if his mother was Nefertiti if she became what AlpineLuke likes to refer as Horo, as she’d need to be dead before Tut performed the Opening of the Mouth ceremony to become king. However, if she were Beketaten or another sister of Akhenaten’s, would it not be possible that they died at the same time and her body was put in another tomb (perhaps she had her own tomb or was put in AIII’s before being moved by the priests to KV35 due to looting or flood risk)?

I know, I know, ‘possible but likely not probable’. Just thought I’d throw it out there to see if any of you had ever pondered the same thing.
 
About Ramose, I doubt he is Paramessu/Ramesses I as that individual was involved in the military in the delta region with his father, Suti, based out of Avaris. There are 2 individuals named Ramose in the late 18th Dyasty, the earlier was vizier to both Amenhotep III and Akhenaten - the names of his family are known so he can't be the same person as Paramessu. He also died during the reign of Akhenaten. The second Ramose appears in the private tomb of Horemheb and for a while it was thought he could be the same person as Paramessu, but his tomb was later found at Saqqara (published in 2001), indicating that he was not the same person. I have references but sadly they are not online.

There must have been a growing power base in the Avaris region, with Horemheb attested there, as well as Paramessu and the diplomat Shuta who has been proposed to be either the future Seti I or his grandfather, troop commander Suti. The year 400 stele, dedicated by Ramesses II to recall a visit by his father before becoming King to venerate the god Seth (which must have been in an earlier time = rein of Akhenaten?), is really interesting. This, and other evidence such as Horemheb active at Avaris seems to demonstrate that there was a major power centre at that city during the Amarna period. The family must also have been a major influence as Seti's brother Khaemwaset was married to the mistress of the Harem of Amun, Taemwadjsy, during Tutankhamun's reign. Her brother was the Viceroy of Kush, Huy. These people are not attested at Amarna but are all involved politically during Tutankhamun's reign. They didn't come from nowhere so must have had an influence politically during Akhenatens' reign, albeit as some kind of opposition. They must have needed to be accommodated as part of the return to normality, they were powerful enough. They must also, considering their family's even greater elevation, been firmly in Horemheb's camp in whatever went down.
 

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