Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
You’re not an idiot—this forum is harder to navigate than most and I didn’t even realize we could remove posts, good to know!
I actually just deleted my saved post, then ‘saved’ it again after I deleted. If that makes sense. Incidentally, I am making a huge effort to re-read posts properly of late because of the misinterpretations I have made of the posts of others. With so many posters, it is hard to keep up, so I am posting less and trying to ‘comprehend’ more. I just need to do my re-reads of other posters posts, and thoroughly, before I post and then have to delete, lol. 😎
 
Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
You can edit your own post deleting the content. Obviously an empty post will remain there. There is a temporal limit to do this [if I'm not wrong it's a couple of hours].



Yes, there were expressions which indicated that the personage was probably dead [not rarely that "justified", just to say ... in Amarna tombs Nefertiti is never indicated as "justified" ...].
That lintel on Huya’s tomb (I think?), does not seem to show Amenophis III as appearing to me in a differing ‘mortal’ state to Tiye and Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Is it something I just imagine, or have I missed something? If Amenophis III is shown living, with nothing shown to indicate him ‘justified’, then do we have to think him ‘justified’?
 
Mar 2019
219
Peterborough, Ontario Canada
That lintel on Huya’s tomb (I think?), does not seem to show Amenophis III as appearing to me in a differing ‘mortal’ state to Tiye and Akhenaten and Nefertiti. Is it something I just imagine, or have I missed something? If Amenophis III is shown living, with nothing shown to indicate him ‘justified’, then do we have to think him ‘justified’?
In the left-hand panel Akhenaten and Nefertiti are seated and being adored by their daughters—each girl grasps a fan, which Murnane notes were customary for attendants to carry in the presence of Pharaoh (p.158). On the right-hand panel, AIII is seated and adored by Tiye and Baketaten—Tiye and Baketaten each raise their arms crooked at the elbow which is a gesture commonly reserved for divinities (although this could point to the fact that AIII was deified while he was still alive—check out the iconographic program at AIII’s Temple in Soleb in this regard).

Some believe that AIII is therefore being depicted in Huya’s tomb as dead and deified (Davies El AmarnaIII, p. CVIII), but proponents for the coregency believe he may have been deified while alive (Aldred, Akhenaten, p. 53).

Considering that Huya was Tiye’s steward the scenes might serve as a congenial family grouping and have nothing to do with a co-regency or lack thereof.
 
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Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
In the left-hand panel Akhenaten and Nefertiti are seated and being adored by their daughters—each girl grasps a fan, which Murnane notes were customary for attendants to carry in the presence of Pharaoh (p.158). On the right-hand panel, AIII is seated and adored by Tiye and Baketaten—Tiye and Baketaten each raise their arms crooked at the elbow which is a gesture commonly reserved for divinities (although this could point to the fact that AIII was deified while he was still alive—check out the iconographic program at AIII’s Temple in Soleb in this regard).

Some believe that AIII is therefore being depicted in Huya’s tomb as dead and deified (Davies El AmarnaIII, p. CVIII), but proponents for the coregency believe he may have been deified while alive (Aldred, Akhenaten, p. 53).

Considering that Huya was Tiye’s steward the scenes might serve as a congenial family grouping and have nothing to do with a co-regency or lack thereof.
It would seem to say something about a Coregency or not, or be a definite clue, depending on whether AIII is dead or not when the lintel was inscribed. 🤔 Seems like the straight answer might be AIII is dead; the idea he was shown ‘deified while alive’, seems to require a little more imagination. Just my initial reaction.

Edit: Though, almost immediately, I consider the plausibility the tomb lintel was inscribed after AIII’s death after the end of any coregency?

Is there anything else in the lintel (or tomb?) to suggest when in Akhenaten’s reign it was made and inscribed?
 
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Nov 2016
760
Germany
Considering that Huya was Tiye’s steward the scenes might serve as a congenial family grouping and have nothing to do with a co-regency or lack thereof.
There are two representations in Huya´s tomb with Tiye, but without Amenhotep III, from which can be concluded that the old king was already dead when these decorations were made in the Outer Hall (see ground plan below). One depiction shows a banquet with Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Tiye (with horn crown) with Beketaten beneath Tiye (no. 3 on the plan), the other depiction (no. 4) shows Akhenaten and Tiye (with horn crown) hand in hand on the way to Tiye's mortuary temple (called "sun shade"), with Beketaten behind Tiye. The latter picture (recently shown in a post of mine) is also interpreted as an indication that Beketaten is not Amenhotep III's child, but possibly that of Akhenaten (according to Velikowsky).

1562988672427.jpeg
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Now the question arises whether these representations prove that Amenhotep III is shown on the lintel representation only as a dead king, showing Akhenaten´s and Tiye´s respect and devotion. Redford says yes, Tyldesley agrees with him.

Tiye and Baketaten each raise their arms crooked at the elbow which is a gesture commonly reserved for divinities (although this could point to the fact that AIII was deified while he was still alive—check out the iconographic program at AIII’s Temple in Soleb in this regard).
Normally two raised hands mean the worship of a divine being, but here Tiye and Beketaten raise only one hand towards the king. Most likely this gives the gesture a weaker meaning. There is a representation from the bourgeois sphere (stele of Khentikhetywer ), on which Aty, the wife of Khentikhetywer, is shown with a similar gesture towards her husband (centre). A single raised hand thus seems to be an interpersonal gesture of admiration which has nothing to do with a divinity of the addressee.

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There are images of gods lifting a single hand towards a king, which means protection. Of course, Tiye´s and Beketaton's gestures cannot have this meaning.
 
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Mar 2019
219
Peterborough, Ontario Canada
There are two representations in Huya´s tomb with Tiye, but without Amenhotep III, from which can be concluded that the old king was already dead when these decorations were made in the Outer Hall (see ground plan below). One depiction shows a banquet with Akhenaten, Nefertiti and Tiye (with horn crown) with Beketaten beneath Tiye (no. 3 on the plan), the other depiction (no. 4) shows Akhenaten and Tiye (with horn crown) hand in hand on the way to Tiye's mortuary temple (called "sun shade"), with Beketaten behind Tiye. The latter picture (recently shown in a post of mine) is also interpreted as an indication that Beketaten is not Amenhotep III's child, but possibly that of Akhenaten (according to Velikowsky).

View attachment 21467
View attachment 21468
View attachment 21469

Now the question arises whether these representations prove that Amenhotep III is shown on the lintel representation only as a dead king, with which Akhenaten and Tiye honored him. Redford says yes, Tyldesley agrees with him.



Normally two raised hands mean the worship of a divine being, but here Tiye and Beketaten raise only one hand towards the king. Most likely this gives the gesture a weaker meaning. There is a representation from the bourgeois sphere (stele of Khentikhetywer ), on which Aty, the wife of Khentikhetywer, is shown with a similar gesture (centre). A single raised hand thus seems to be an interpersonal gesture of admiration which has nothing to do with a divinity of the addressee.

View attachment 21471

There are images of gods lifting a single hand towards a king, which means protection. Of course, Tiye´s and Beketaton's gestures cannot have this meaning.
Thank you for the insights regarding the images of gods raising a single hand of protection and also the information about Aty, the wife of Khentikhetywer depicted on his stele—I was not familiar with these examples!
 
Likes: Ayrton
Jul 2017
2,770
Crows nest
Considering that Huya was Tiye’s steward the scenes might serve as a congenial family grouping and have nothing to do with a co-regency or lack thereof.
Probably, but the two scenes do not have to show concurrent events, and don't seem to anyway. The issue of course is to try to make out what potential time gap we see, difficult to say the least. Also, in this changing world of Amarna where normality has been turned on it's head, while we see Amunhotep III depicted as alive, could the convention have been changed so that a person dead can be depicted as alive in a scene from a time when they were alive. This seems a bit complicated and stretching known conventions to fit a purpose, but I think it needs at least some consideration. My reason for suggesting that is that if he is already Ra-Horakhty, then whether his actual body has died is irrelevant as the god does not die in the sense that we mortals, or even Osiris die. The "death" of Ra at sunset is a seamless transition from his falcon headed form to his ba form, and there is no dead body, no being "justified", and there cannot be as when he meets Osiris he is not judged by him, but merges with him. So, as different rules for death apply to Ra, do they also apply to Amunhotep III if he has become Ra, Ra-Horakhty, Atum-Ra, Aten and Uncle Tom Cobley. In the scene he does of course look less than godlike and just like an overweight potentate.

Just for illustration. Ra, "dead" but alive as he is in the very first depiction of him in the first hour of the Amduat. Atenism may have dispensed with all this, but various concepts are still going to remain in their minds, for instance that while the Sun ceases to be at night, it is not "dead". We still don't know what, if any, mechanism there was for the re-birth of Aten at dawn, and how that translates to the "life cycle" of a mortal made god and how they should be depicted, an overweight potenate or the shining Aten.

 
Oct 2011
26,185
Italy, Lago Maggiore
The most interesting aspect of that lintel is that Huya [who knew both the Royal individuals] represents [his artists] Nefertiti really similar to Amenhotep III and sure he doesn't give the same importance to Tiye ... think to how Nefertiti's daughters have introduced ...

lintel.JPG
 
Likes: Ayrton
Jan 2017
4,141
Bendigo
The most interesting aspect of that lintel is that Huya [who knew both the Royal individuals] represents [his artists] Nefertiti really similar to Amenhotep III and sure he doesn't give the same importance to Tiye ... think to how Nefertiti's daughters have introduced ...

View attachment 21472
That is certainly curious about the ‘hat’. It means something. What is the motive behind that, I wonder? Maybe the function and symbolism of that particular head pieces might be a good place to start? Incidentally, just for clarity, it isn’t Nubian wigs we are seeing??? Or head pieces of some kind reminiscent of ‘rishi’ coffins?
 

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