Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,247
Bendigo
There is one thing we can deduce, and that is that this was not a sudden eruption, for the ruins at Akrotiri indicate that the Minoan city had been completely evacuated of people and their belongings. That this occured shows that they knew what was going to happen, and that is likely because there had been a previous eruption. Earthquakes may have given them cause for alarm, but as we saw at Pompeii, they had no idea that a massive eruption would follow ten years later. If at some indeterminate time before the Thera eruption, but within living memory, or not too far back, there had been earthquakes followed by a minor eruption, next time it happened they didn't hang around and promptly evacuated. So we could have two events separated not too widely in time. And, who knows, if there had not been two events at Thera, but by coincidence there may have been an event like the Chelyabinsk meteor, and something like that would have scared them to death, but that's just speculation.
A meteor for the Ahmose Stele events might sound plausible. No mention of pillars or ‘blasts’, just a very mysterious and unusual storm and floods. Shortly after the time of the ‘Expulsion’. Maybe the Hyksos kings had heard of the storm and saw it as God punishing the Egyptians for casting them out!? That is where Expulsion began to be seen as an Exodus? Maybe the initial invasion of Egypt by the Hyksos began to be seen as a peaceful ‘arrival’?
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,644
Italy, Lago Maggiore
The problem about putting the catastrophic eruption in XIX century BCE is that the scientific datation of the eruption says XVI century BCE [or late XVII century BCE] ... As for I know there are no indications of a previous major eruption [comparable to that one].
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,644
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Here we go: this is the summary of the great eruptions of the second cycle of the volcano at Thera.

The second cycle comprises at least 7 bigger eruptions: Cape Thera, Middle Pumice at 60 ka, Vourvoulos, Upper Scoriae 1 and 2 at circa 40 ka, Cape Riva at 21 ka and the Minoan eruption at ca. 1645 BC.
[Geology of Santorini: volcanism]

So, we can say that around 1600BCE there was a catastrophic eruption. No other comparable eruptions happened a bit before of it.
 
Mar 2019
244
Peterborough, Ontario Canada
If you look at this illustration in Samson of a relief at Karnak, each half of the KV62 ‘Cosmetic Jar’ can be seen under the altar.
And the photo of the Cosmetic Jar seems to catch the light in the middle at the base, as if they were fused together and reworked.
I don’t want to disrupt the current line of inquiry of the thread but I have a pressing question regarding the recent pectoral discussion that perhaps one of you can quickly answer, or PM me about.

In 2017 Reeves thought he detected the presence of original cartouches beneath the ones above the figures that now represent Tutankhamun and Ay in the unusual depiction of the opening of the mouth ceremony on the north tomb wall.

Looking at the figure of Tutankhamun, the pectoral worn by this figure is the same worn in the scene where the mummy is being dragged by the dignitaries, and it looks extremely similar to the pectoral no. 261j from Carter’s inventory.

Now, if you look at that pectoral, the hieroglyphics are in a cartouche that seems too long for the name (in addition to Tut’s prenomen, an epithet is inserted to fill up the space of the large cartouche: image of Ra); the orientation of the hieroglyphics are also reversed.

So, seeing how pieces of the cosmetic box were actually represented in the relief I posted earlier (and tomb contents could likewise be the same ones depicted in the tomb’s paintings) my question is: could the identity of the personage from the original cartouche of 261j point towards the original owner of KV62??

I did find other pectorals that look similar (see attached for comparison), so perhaps there is nothing noteworthy about this observation, and 261j may not be the same one that is meant to be depicted on the painted tomb figures of the deceased and the scarab pectoral usually took that shape (green, blue and red cloisonné wings on a gold background flanking the scarab) in its role of calling upon the heart of the deceased to not betray itself (Chapter 30B BOD).

As always, I’d be interested in your thoughts.
 

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Nov 2016
892
Germany
Perhaps I could have said Heliopolitan theology.
Well, I guess that's a better term. That the overall creation myth is composed from different sources is well known to me, I know some coherent assemblings of the original (translated) parts and have referred to that here several times, but I have in this context never seen a reference to Spell 175, so I was astonished.

I do not see David or Solomon practicing monotheism is any pure sense (it doesn’t exist anyway, anywhere, IMO), what I think is that the many Biblical writers looked back from post the Babylonian exile to a David and Solomon who practiced ‘monotheism’, whether or not David or Solomon actually did. In fact, whether or not David or Solomon even actually existed.
That Solomon is not described as a monotheist, but as a monolatrist (who becomes unfaithful to Yawheh because of his love for beautiful women) is certainly true, but it is enough to portray him as an (initially) absolutely convinced monolatrist to nourish the illusion that Jewish monotheism can look back on an ancient tradition of an offical and radical Yahweh worship (which supposedly goes as far as Moses).

However, there is no evidence to suggest that there was actually a monolatry around Yahweh in Israel around 1,000 BCE. Something like a monolatric worship of Yahweh probably did not emerge until the time of King Josiah (end of the 7th century BCE), but only at the state level. The people remained with their old gods and above all goddesses (Ishtar). It is well known that even a connection between Yahweh and the Canaanite Ishtar variant Ashera was part of the pre-Exilic faith, as can be seen from two finds from the time around 700 BCE, in which ´Yahweh and his Ashera´ are mentioned, whereby Ashera was originally the wife of the Canaanite main god El, whose characteristics the Yahweh worshippers had gradually transferred to their god (syncretism). In the 5th century BCE a Jewish colony in Elephantine (Upper Egypt) had even venerated the Syrian fertility and war goddess Anat and joined her Yahweh as a partner. Here the strict monotheism, as Nehemiah and Ezra had demanded, was apparently still not effective, probably because the location was so remote from the homeland.

As far as David is concerned, the attitude of this figure (historical or not) can at least be regarded as strictly monolatric and, to some extent, monotheistic. Verse 31 (in some editions 32) in Psalm 18, attributed to David, shows a clearly monotheistic statement in form of a rhetorical question (the translation corresponds to the Hebrew text, as I have verified in the interlinear translation):

31 For who is God, but the Lord?
 
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Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
2,923
Crows nest
I don’t want to disrupt the current line of inquiry of the thread but I have a pressing question regarding the recent pectoral discussion that perhaps one of you can quickly answer, or PM me about.

In 2017 Reeves thought he detected the presence of original cartouches beneath the ones above the figures that now represent Tutankhamun and Ay in the unusual depiction of the opening of the mouth ceremony on the north tomb wall.

Looking at the figure of Tutankhamun, the pectoral worn by this figure is the same worn in the scene where the mummy is being dragged by the dignitaries, and it looks extremely similar to the pectoral no. 261j from Carter’s inventory.

Now, if you look at that pectoral, the hieroglyphics are in a cartouche that seems too long for the name (in addition to Tut’s prenomen, an epithet is inserted to fill up the space of the large cartouche: image of Ra); the orientation of the hieroglyphics are also reversed.

So, seeing how pieces of the cosmetic box were actually represented in the relief I posted earlier (and tomb contents could likewise be the same ones depicted in the tomb’s paintings) my question is: could the identity of the personage from the original cartouche of 261j point towards the original owner of KV62??

I did find other pectorals that look similar (see attached for comparison), so perhaps there is nothing noteworthy about this observation, and 261j may not be the same one that is meant to be depicted on the painted tomb figures of the deceased and the scarab pectoral usually took that shape (green, blue and red cloisonné wings on a gold background flanking the scarab) in its role of calling upon the heart of the deceased to not betray itself (Chapter 30B BOD).

As always, I’d be interested in your thoughts.
You will find this post of interest, and I think we would all find the full results of this scan of KV62 to be of interest. From the documentary the screenshot is from, I get the idea that this is still a work in progress, or at least in that all the scans have probably been made by now, but no results yet published. When they are, I foresee confusion over another scan of KV62 before people realise that this is not a ground penetrating radar scan. Just Ancient Egypt
 
Mar 2019
323
Ogden, Utah
So, we can say that around 1600BCE there was a catastrophic eruption. No other comparable eruptions happened a bit before of it.
True, but that is no reason for anybody to connect it to an exodus. [Not that you did, AlpinLuke]. The early church fathers did the Biblical math long ago and wrote it down. For them, the reign of Ahmose was too early because Moses was still young in his time [as pointed out by Syncellus the Monk]. But that Ahmose and his mother, Ah-hotep, had something to do with Minoans seems clear enough. There is the axe I showed before and the fact that Ah-hotep was called "mistress of the islanders of the sea" [hau-nebu] even though she was an Egyptian lady from a royal house. And then there were the Minoan frescoes at Tell el Daba, thought to be ancient Avaris.

Eusebius wrote down a Biblical reckoning, although it is five years out with the Anno Mundi dating--but over five years I wouldn't quibble. Eusebius has Abraham in 2015 BCE and Moses in 1510--the time that he left Egypt for good only to return one last time when he confronted Pharaoh. 1510 was during the reign of Thutmose I by the Hugh Chronology--and now one can see why Syncellus believed Moses was still young in the reign of Ahmose. One must point out that the early church fathers support the High Chronology in the Biblical time line. Whatever expulsions occurred in the reigns of Ahmose and Thutmose I--Moses was not involved in them. According to Jewish tradition [as we first hear from Josephus, obviously not an early church father] a king of Egypt sent Moses down to Kush to do some warring against those people. This seems to agree with the modern "Book of Jasher" [and we have no way of knowing how much that resembles the ancient one, if at all]. Therein it states that Moses was still young when he went to Kush and remained there for many years, having run afoul of a pharaoh called "Cenephres" [according to Artapanus and much later Bar Hebraeus]. Anyway, that is why I previously said that Moses returned as an old man to confront either Thutmose III or his son, Amenhotep II--depending upon how old he had been when he quit Egypt around 1510. Thutmose III ended his long reign in 1450 BCE. The Bible says Moses was 40 when he left--Jewish legend has him in his 20's, instead. Whatever truth the modern Book of Jasher [not translated into English from the Hebrew until the 19th Century] contains, it must surely contain Jewish legends--and was heavily relied upon by Louis Ginsburg in his volumes on the same.

In my opinion, the Book of Exodus is not a history but a story--much like the Egyptian Tale of Sinuhe. A man leaves Egypt and does not dare to return until the day that he decides to do so. In the case of Moses, a deity instructs him to go back. In the case of Sinuhe, a pharaoh welcomes him back--but the elderly Moses does not wish to remain in Egypt. But perhaps he remained there, anyway. It seems suspicious to me that the God of the Hebrews preserved both Moses and his brother to tremendously old ages but does not allow them to enter the land of Canaan. In a story, the author can say what he likes. However, most Egyptian tales contain some historical fact. The pharaohs who reigned in the time of Sinuhe, Amenemhat I and Senwosret I, are named. Not so the kings who reigned in the time of Moses--except in Jewish legend.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,644
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Well, it's out of doubt that it's not above suspicion that the Torah doesn't name the Monarch who was ruling KmT when Moses leaded the proto-Israelites out of it. It's curious, to say the least. During the centuries less or more popular, not canonical, tales have added a name or they have introduced the most weird explanations to justify this loss of information. In fact, while we know Ancient Egyptians didn't like to remember tremendous defeats, there is not obvious reason why Moses and the others had to erase the name of the defeated Pharaoh. They had faced and defeated a Pharaoh ... ok, with a Divine aid, but it's like if today a little people challenges and defeats the United States of America ... wouldn't they remember the name of the US President they have defeated?

Making a comparison with the literary construction of the late figure of King Arthur [who even wasn't a "King" at the beginning of his literary career, but a "Dux Bellorum" in Latin texts, btw], I suspect that a quite similar process has seen a nice chemistry at work, with the tale of the Tradition enriched of [why not?] Egyptian interpolations and the recall of other events. One of the events which could have been added is just the defeat of a Pharaoh. Naming a Pharaoh the author of the Torah and the Tanakh [putting on paper in Greek the Tradition] would have given an accurate temporal reference. Did they realize that this would have made it easy to "debunk" their reconstruction of the facts?

At this point I wonder if the Tradition told something slightly different and that the Exodus didn't see the defeat of a Pharaoh, but may be a defeat for a system which wasn't able to keep on holding [and in a certain sense detaining] a People [or a group of tribes which begun to consider itself a People probably just in Egypt].

But, here we risk to speculate.
 
Nov 2016
892
Germany
Well, it's out of doubt that it's not above suspicion that the Torah doesn't name the Monarch who was ruling KmT when Moses leaded the proto-Israelites out of it.
Ramesses II and his son Merenptah are regarded by optimistic exegetes as the most likely candidates for Pharaoh's identity at the time of the alleged Exodus. The name "Israel" appears for the first time in history on a victory stele of king Merenptah (1213-1203 BCE), which lists cities he defeated in Canaan in 1208: Askalon, Gezer and Inuam. There is no report about such events in the Jewish sources, what doesn't exactly increase the likelihood of truth content in biblical accounts of that time. Then it says on the stele: "Israel is devastated, it has no seed". Finally Charu is mentioned, the land of the Churritians. The three city names are marked with the hieroglyphic sign for "foreign land", "Israel" however with the sign for "foreign people", thus a group of people. Whether the expression "seed" stands for seed or progeny cannot be clarified, not even who this group is. It was probably composed of Shasu and Habiru, who - according to most historians - gradually united in the 13th century BCE to cope with the pressure exerted by the Egyptians. Prisoners of war were usually transferred to slavery, which could explain the myth of the captivity of the "people of Israel" in Egypt. That Habiru, but also Shasu could get into Egyptian slavery, is certain. An "Exodus" of the kind and magnitude described in the Tanach is, however, neither proven by sources nor archaeologically.

"Israel" on the Merenptah stele, written in hieroglyphs (red). The signs are phonetic apart from the two figures which mean "foreign people":

1563810037345.png
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,644
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Ramesses II and his son Merenptah are regarded by optimistic exegetes as the most likely candidates for Pharaoh's identity at the time of the alleged Exodus. The name "Israel" appears for the first time in history on a victory stele of king Merenptah (1213-1203 BCE), which lists cities he defeated in Canaan in 1208: Askalon, Gezer and Inuam. There is no report about such events in the Jewish sources, what doesn't exactly increase the likelihood of truth content in biblical accounts of that time. Then it says on the stele: "Israel is devastated, it has no seed". Finally Charu is mentioned, the land of the Churritians. The three city names are marked with the hieroglyphic sign for "foreign land", "Israel" however with the sign for "foreign people", thus a group of people. Whether the expression "seed" stands for seed or progeny cannot be clarified, not even who this group is. It was probably composed of Shasu and Habiru, who - according to most historians - gradually united in the 13th century BCE to cope with the pressure exerted by the Egyptians. Prisoners of war were usually transferred to slavery, which could explain the myth of the captivity of the "people of Israel" in Egypt. That Habiru, but also Shasu could get into Egyptian slavery, is certain. An "Exodus" of the kind and magnitude described in the Tanach is, however, neither proven by sources nor archaeologically.

"Israel" on the Merenptah stele, written in hieroglyphs (red). The signs are phonetic apart from the two figures which mean "foreign people":

View attachment 21774
In which sense do you read it?
[The question is rhetoric since the answer is evident because of the determinative, so don't answer].

Ok, but how would this prove that there was an Exodus? May be "Israel" [it's not Israel actually, it sounds more as "ysris"] was a local Canaan population known in KmT and in that moment they noted it was desolated?
 

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