Akhenaten (Box, Carter Archive 001K)

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,246
Bendigo
I wonder what you consider a "trained Egyptologist". As far as I know, Rohl has no PhD. I once read he had an MA--but that can be obtained in a year in the UK. I know of someone who did. Anyway, here's the Wiki article on his background.

David Rohl - Wikipedia

Not that it really matters. Even a former rock musician could come up with a good theory. The thing is--Rohl's "New Chronology" can't hold up. This is known because certain things that are mentioned in some texts depend on it being the correct season. The Civil Calendar of ancient Egypt wandered through the naturally occurring seasons but it's possible to get a concordance from these texts. Even during the time of Thutmose III, the calendar was nearly in sync with the natural season. By the time of Akhenaten it was even more so because a new Sothic Cycle was about to begin--and this only happened every 1,460 years--when the rising of Sothis occurred on the first day of the first month of Akhet, in what was termed "a perfect year". Rohl can't abide mention of these things because they make a mess of his radical time line. He wants to be free to put anybody wherever he pleases but he is restricted by such things as Thutmose III having to be in Canaan in the early spring--or else--in the month of I Smw because that is when the winter wheat ripened there. That is really what the young pharaoh was after--food. Not forgetting that the Civil Calendar wanders though the seasons, on some dates I Smw could be in the winter.
I am not sold on Rohl’s basic theories, or Ahmed Osmond’s for that matter, but I do keep my mind open. I am not aware that Rohl ‘can’t abide mention of these things’. My impression from reading his books - quite a few years ago - is that he just has a differing view of the Sothic Dating business, so not so much not ‘abiding’ but not ‘agreeing’ with what he called the Consensus view.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,246
Bendigo
I consider David Rohl the Graham Hancock of Egyptology. His chronology is like to see a sphinx on Mars [Hancock and Rohl should work together to write the ultimate chronology of Ancient Egypt].

This said, I simply leave Rohl to the destiny he's building for himself.
I don’t see Rohl in this light at all. Either much of what he says is correct, or it’s not. I do not dismiss any investigators thoughts so easily. Bad investigative method, period. I don’t believe anything, ultimately, until there is clear proof. That goes both ways on any discussion or debate. To put him in the same bracket as Hancock is to gaslight him, not disprove him.
 

Ayrton

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,246
Bendigo
Reading the last few posts, and taking into account the earlier posts about the time of year Tut was buried, it does seem that there could have been a delay.

The possible timeline is that Tut died just before the winter season - so the message could get to Suppiluliuma when he was on a campaign - then the messages went back and forth until the Spring (3 - 4 months) and then after it all went wrong Tut was buried and Ay became king in the early Spring. This stretches the traditional 70 days a fair bit but would fit with the spring flowers in Tut's tomb, and account for Ay being shown as king as part of his justification to rule.

Note that nowhere in the tomb is anything relating to Ankhensenamun damaged / defaced - so when the tomb was closed she was not disgraced (if she ever was).

To me the conclusion is that Ankhensenamun and Ay worked together at this time - the Newberry ring supports this idea - while negotiations were taking place. Ay became king because he was clearly the next best option for the queen. Horemheb is conspicuous in his absence at this time - unless he was the Egyptian messenger of course - gut feeling and the evidence of him defacing Ay's monuments says he was not and likely opposed the idea of a foreign ruler. Everything Horemheb did after taking power seems to indicate he would have been against the idea.
If the tale is historical and the Hittite account is accurate, then the Egyptian Queen has no husband - deceased - and no other suitable Royal candidates to take as husband. Ankhsenamun might seem to be best candidate in that light. The names involved, King and Queen, does seem to match up well enough with Ankhsenamun and Nebkheperure. Would Ay be thought of as a ‘servant’?
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,582
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Until there are no counter evidences, we cannot sustain that Ay was in some way Royal. So far we can only suppose he was a bit more than a commoner. As said in an other circumstance, perhaps it was his wife, Tey [Nefertiti's nurse] to be the noble one and Ay gained a better social position getting married with her [may be thanks to his career at palace]. Then he was probably sustained by the clan of Akhmin.
 
Likes: Ayrton
Given Ay's unusual titles as king, referencing his mentoring role to Tutankhamun, he is unlikely to have had any better claim. There is no proof at all that he is related to the royal family, just theories. Tey is just as likely to have been a relative.
 
Jul 2017
2,909
Crows nest
Which reminds me that the issue of the title "Gods father" in relation to Ay has not been solved. The specific issue being that how can we judge the true meaning of this title when in the New Kingdom we find it being used for the lowest rank of "professional priests", and as an obvious high grade honorific by others, such as Ay and various high priests, and I quoted the example of one of the High Priests of Osiris a few months back.
 
Oct 2011
26,582
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Also Yuya, Tiye's father, was "Divine Father" [or God's Father].

Yuya was in the same potential condition of Ay, if Ay was the father of one of the wives of Akhenaten. Nefertiti or Kiya. Or, if we limit the field to the GRW, father of Nefertiti. A part that this would mean that Nefertiti wasn't Akhenaten's sister, we should make a research about the titles carried by the known fathers of Great Royal Wives in that period.

Nice homework.
 
Oct 2011
26,582
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Jul 2017
2,909
Crows nest
The title seems to come with also being, or having been a vizier, for instance the High Priest of Osiris who also styled himself God's Father, had previously been a vizier. Though neither Yuya or Ay had been a vizier. Career structures look interesting here.
 
Last edited:

Similar History Discussions