America played the key role in German defeat in World War I

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
5,950
Spain
"I am going to say who didn´t take part in the outrage.. nor Germany, nor Austria- Hungary, nor France, nor UK, nor Montenegro nor Italy"

Perhaps it was an Italian that murdered the even more tragic (surviving Rudolph) Empress Elizabeth, but besides that minor inconsistency, I strongly doubt that the Black Hand (not an actual translation of the group's name) in Serbia allowed Hartwig any advance information. So very, very many "what ifs" during July, however, I think it is a mistake to make Hartwig into a more significant personality in the story than he was.
I agree with you about Hartwig... but it is clear he encouraged the outrage.. He said that Russia would protect Serbia and that Austria would not go to war. For his eternal shame, not even he canceled the party took place in the Russian Embassy that Sunday celebratin the Kosovo´s day!!!
And we can forget the Artomonov´s rol...

Kotromanic, I am sure.. you don´t belive the Thronefölger was killed because one day a teenager was boring and had nothing better to do...The Archduke was an innocent victim killed by Serbian terrorist trained, funded and armed by the Serbian Intelligent Service... The Monarchy had the right to punish the Terrorist nest... only because they were the Habsburg Family, they did not have to stand the violence, the terrorism and the murders commited by Serbian ultra-nationalist fanaticism.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
2,127
Republika Srpska
Not enemy at all.. not in 1914.. when Apis, the chief of the Black Hand.. was at the moment the Serbian IS chief...or Pasicht feared Apis... or he was his "friend" or his "chief".
Yes, they were enemies. When Voja Tankosić was temporarily imprisoned in 1914, he was asked why did the Black Hand help with the assassination. Tankosić's answer: "to spite Pašić":
 
Dec 2011
4,265
Iowa USA
Kotromanic, I am sure.. you don´t belive the Thronefölger was killed because one day a teenager was boring and had nothing better to do...The Archduke was an innocent victim killed by Serbian terrorist trained, funded and armed by the Serbian Intelligent Service... The Monarchy had the right to punish the Terrorist nest... only because they were the Habsburg Family, they did not have to stand the violence, the terrorism and the murders commited by Serbian ultra-nationalist fanaticism.
We have agreed I think on which is the best English language secondary source on the assassination, so of course, your comment about bored teenager I will take as hyperbole.

Morally, of course, the Monarchy had a right. We have no disagreement there.

Now... the matter which was disaster for the Royal and Imperial monarchy, actually turned out to be the inept (to be charitable) diplomacy of Bethman-Hollweg and others in Berlin. If U.K. is persuaded to not enter the Continental War then Romanovs and Habsburgs and Ottomans will continue in some form.
 
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Likes: martin76
Dec 2011
4,265
Iowa USA
Yes, they were enemies. When Voja Tankosić was temporarily imprisoned in 1914, he was asked why did the Black Hand help with the assassination. Tankosić's answer: "to spite Pašić":
Serbia wasn't economically developed enough to have a Western style Constitutional monarchy. Military men with dreams of grandeur did great damage.
 

Sam-Nary

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
6,735
At present SD, USA
The Relation between Princip and SErvia are very easy to find... and it was found out from the first moment... the terrorist group came from Serbia...
Princip was born in Bosnia. He was a BOSNIAN Serb, and thus an Austrian citizen. And in a timeframe when nationalism is on the rise, one must either A) kill so many people from a minority that they're too afraid to be angry at their rights are lost (or perceived to be) or B) give them some degree of autonomy so that they feel that they have some control over themselves (as Austria ultimately did with Hungary). Austria did neither with Serbia... It was as though it was still before the French Revolution as far Franz Joseph was concerned and nationalism did not exist... In this, it's no surprise that Bosnian Serbs were angry over Austria getting Bosnia. And to make matters worse, Franz Ferdinand chose a day to go to Sarajevo that coincided with a day that the Serbs in the Balkan region held to be extremely important for their heritage to conduct his inspection of Austria's maneuvers.

In this, had Ferdinand not gone... or had Franz Joseph decided that in the creation of the Duel Monarchy to administer the country in a way that would give the local populations be they German, Hungarian, or Slav real control over at least their internal affairs, rather than essentially demanding all groups live under German or Hungarian administration (depending on what part of the Empire you were in), the ethnic tensions in the region would have been lower... though that's all purely speculative.

With Serbian guns and Serbian trained...
The weapons issue is irrelevant. By that sort of argument, the AEF was pretty much a French unit since most of their weapons were French ones, the Renault FT 17 and the SPAD XII.

And while the group that pulled off the assassination may have had training from Serbia's intelligence ministry, that does not mean that the assassination was action proposed or supported by the Serb government. A government's national policy is not controlled by its intelligence services.

About Russia´s support... it is not necessary the Czar´s support.. and yes... the Russian Panslavist politician encouraged, supported and protected the Serbian terrorists.
But in the sort of government that Nicholas II had... it's the Tsar's support that is the most critical. His ministers can encourage all the pan-Slavism they like. If Nicholas doesn't support it, it doesn't matter, and when he learned of the assassination, Nicholas didn't jump to support Serbia at all costs. In this, had Austria been far more measured in its response, and not effectively made a demand that Serbia become at least an Austrian puppet state if not an Austrian province, it's likely that Nicholas wouldn't have been swayed to support Serbia as the crisis continued to unfold.

Only it is necessary to watch the Nikolas Hartwig´s attitude from the Russian Embassy in Beograd or the Russian military attache in Beograd, Viktor Artamonov and Apis...
First, the opinions of small fish are irrelevant if the Tsar has a different opinion, and Nicholas didn't support or approve of the assassination. His opinion with regard to Serbia only changed AFTER Austria began making demands that would essentially remove Serbia from the map.

Second, Apis was Serbia's intelligence minister and wasn't Russian... And as the intelligence minister, he was not in control of Serbia's government policy, and would eventually be executed for his role in the assassination of one of Serbia's noble houses prior to WWI. In this his presence or activity is NOT confirmation of Serbia's intent.

But to say Russia or Servia were "innocent" and Serbia had not linked to the outrage.. it is a ilussion....
I'm not saying that there was no connection to Serbia with regards to Ferdinand's assassination. The problem though, is that the assassination is one thing and the war is quite another. And in the end, the assassination was not Serbia's policy. Apis played a clear role with regard the training of the assassins, but he was still only the intelligence minister and was often at odds with Pasic, the head of the Serbian government, who opposed the assassination as well. The issue that creates so much trouble on Serbia's end is the push back and forth between Pasic and Apis, in that while Pasic in pure theory had more authority over policy than Apis did, but Apis had more direct loyalty to him from the machinery needed to keep Serbia functioning, which then in turn assured every attempt Pasic made to prevent the assassins from crossing into Bosnia failed.

And while some of Russia's ministers might looked on a war with Austria with some degree of favor, given Austria's weaknesses, unless you can present a signed order from Nicholas II that expressly orders the assassination of Franz Ferdinand... Russia played no role in the assassination. The only possible "Russian connection" would be that Apis might have felt emboldened with regard to Serbia's alliance with Russia... but with the back and forth in the power struggles with Pasic within Serbia, I'd find that unlikely. If one is going to use foreign countries as puppets, you want the puppet that you use to be the man in charge of the government, not one of its ministries.

And while the assassination could be viewed as an "outrage," it isn't by itself war. The war is in relation to how Austria reacts to the assassination, and that was decidedly harsh and emotional. The ultimatum that Austria delivered was one that was designed to be rejected, and yet, Pasic's government accepted nearly every provision of the ultimatum and offered Austria the opportunity for international mediation for any of the parts that they were dissatisfied with in the reply. When Wilhelm II saw the Serb reply to the Austrian ultimatum, he saw it as an Austrian victory, which could have gotten Austria justice for Ferdinand's assassination WITHOUT a war. Yet Austria went ahead and declared the response unacceptable and attacked Serbia, starting the war... And there is some rumor that Austrian diplomats had instructions to find ANY Serb reply unacceptable...

And that last point would be something that create some image that Conrad von Hotzendorf was using the assassination to get what he'd tried to get done some 20 times prior to the assassination... war with Serbia.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
5,950
Spain
Of course, Princip (and the others terrorist) were Austrohungarian citizens because Bosnia-Hercegovin was an Imperial and Royal Condominium. And they were underage (most of them).. so according with the Monarchy´s laws were not possible the Capital Punishment (a great difference with USA.. by the way).

Habsburg´s Monarchy was anti-nationalism.... they defended the History not the invention of countries and nationalities.. When the K und K controlled Bosnia in 1880-1882 (not in 1909)... they found a cultural desert... only few Madrassas... nothing more. So the Austrian organized and development the public instruction.. and the culture. Pan-Germanist wanted to impose the German language as "mandatory" in the School System... (as Yankees did in Texas or California or Florida.. by the way).. but the Habsburg (Franz Josefz )denied. By his own order.. the official language in School in Bosnia was the Serbian! (as in Bohemia was the German and the Czech).
The Monarchy was the most decentralized "country" on Earth!!! The were a group of lands under the Habsburg ´s rule. Serbian was (Serbo-Croatian, really) official language in the Monarchy, as the Italian, Polish, Ukrainian, Slovenian, Slovakian etc etc.

Can you imagine a World cup final between Illinois vs USA? Delaware vs USA? Not.. really.. maybe because USA are more centralized than the Monarchy. However in the Ice Hokej European Championship in 1911, 1912, 1913 took places matches between Bohemia (Franz Josef) vs Austria (Franz Josef)... as everybody can see.

Bohemia the Team won the 1911 Championship after defating Austria and then Germany


So.. any place on Earth was more decentralized than the Monarchy. So. to compare the "nationalism" in the K und K goverment and the ultranationalism in Beograd... and we will know who created the breeding ground to spread hatred and terrorism .. for sure not.. Franz Josef.


In this, had Ferdinand not gone... or had Franz Joseph decided that in the creation of the Duel Monarchy to administer the country in a way that would give the local populations be they German, Hungarian, or Slav real control over at least their internal affairs, rather than essentially demanding all groups live under German or Hungarian administration (depending on what part of the Empire you were in), the ethnic tensions in the region would have been lower... though that's all purely speculative.
Why did he have not right to go to Bosnia? He was the Thronefölger? Did Patchitch have the right to visit the Sanjak of Novi Pazar? Why? Franz Ferdinands was killed by Serbia because his Trialist project. He understood the Nationalism was the poison could annihilate the Empire. In fact, the Nationalism begun in the Monarchy not because of Germans, or Slaves.. or Italians... but because of Magyars!

The weapons issue is irrelevant
Dear Sam-Nary.. you are too much intelligent and cultivated to do this kind of cinism!... Weapons are very relevant.. It is funny 09/11 was not kind of evidence about Afghan or Iraki participation... and they were attacked!... and you say, the Weapons from Serbian Military Arsenal... are not "relevant"... if tomorrow, one president in USA is killed by a US citizen... from Russian origin.. with russian weapons.. from Russian Miliary Arsenal.. and with contact with the Russian IS and the Russian members of the Russian Army.. I hope you write here.. it is irrelevant...

it is very relevant.. in fact, the weapons (and the statements) linked the Serbian Army, the Serbian IS and the Terrorist! It was in Beograd (and not in Sarajevo) where the outrage was planned, funded, organized and executed...And in the plot was implicaded the Army, the IS and likely the Goverment or some members as Patchitch.

But in the sort of government that Nicholas II had... it's the Tsar's support that is the most critical. His ministers can encourage all the pan-Slavism they like. If Nicholas doesn't support it, it doesn't matter, and when he learned of the assassination, Nicholas didn't jump to support Serbia at all costs. In this, had Austria been far more measured in its response, and not effectively made a demand that Serbia become at least an Austrian puppet state if not an Austrian province, it's likely that Nicholas wouldn't have been swayed to support Serbia as the crisis continued to unfold.
Nikolas was a good man.. but very very weak.. his control about the goverment was not exactly... absolute as the Autocrate he was!.. in fact, the Russian support to Beograd was given by Hartwing to Patchitch weeks before the ultimatum were presented.. the K und K "Straffen" expedition was only to clean Serbia from terrorism.. as in present USA in Afghanistan and in Irak and Russia in Syria. The world broke down because Russia took part in the defense of the terrorist...The same would have happened in 2002 if the would have defended Afghanistan or Irak... but in 2002 the 1914 lesson was learned.
Austria had not wanted Serbia (only to avoid more terrorism and more violence)... it was very easy: Don´t kill me my people and I am not going to kill you.. But the Serbian ultra nationalism desired the war because they were hearted by the Russian Paneslavism.


First, the opinions of small fish are irrelevant if the Tsar has a different opinion, and Nicholas didn't support or approve of the assassination. His opinion with regard to Serbia only changed AFTER Austria began making demands that would essentially remove Serbia from the map.
Austrian didn´t present any demand to Beograd till July 25th. The Russian support begun earlier... It is funny for you Hartwig and Artomonov are the "little Fish".. however the Little fish very often control the State more than the theorical "Big" Fish...

Second, Apis was Serbia's intelligence minister and wasn't Russian... And as the intelligence minister, he was not in control of Serbia's government policy, and would eventually be executed for his role in the assassination of one of Serbia's noble houses prior to WWI. In this his presence or activity is NOT confirmation of Serbia's intent
Apis - Royal House - Goverment worked together... Apis´ execution took place in Greece in 1917... after the Serbian dreams was destroyed: Beograd conquered.. Serbia conquered... so Apis in 1917 was not Apis in 1903 or Apis in 1914... His Power gone out for 1917... and he was the "scapegoat"...if Beograd would have wanted to collaborate with the legitimate Austro-Hungarian claims ... they would have clean Beograd from Austrian hatred propaganda and they had closed the terrorist net and they would have handed over the terrorist men as Apis and others to the Imperial Authorities.


I'm not saying that there was no connection to Serbia with regards to Ferdinand's assassination
+1. We agree so. Dear Sam.. we have the same thought about the Servian connection. I agree with you about Nikola.. he was a sincere pacifist.. as Franz Josef.. by the way...In fact, not even the Big-mouth Wilhelm II was a warmonger... But Serbian ultranationalism, Russian Panslavism and French irredentism played a big rol in the War.

And while the assassination could be viewed as an "outrage," it isn't by itself war. The war is in relation to how Austria reacts to the assassination, and that was decidedly harsh and emotional. The ultimatum that Austria delivered was one that was designed to be rejected, and yet, Pasic's government accepted nearly every provision of the ultimatum and offered Austria the opportunity for international mediation for any of the parts that they were dissatisfied with in the reply. When Wilhelm II saw the Serb reply to the Austrian ultimatum, he saw it as an Austrian victory, which could have gotten Austria justice for Ferdinand's assassination WITHOUT a war. Yet Austria went ahead and declared the response unacceptable and attacked Serbia, starting the war... And there is some rumor that Austrian diplomats had instructions to find ANY Serb reply unacceptable...
In some point you are right, Sam-Nary.. for sure.. but not exaclty in everything. Austria designed a note (not exactly an ultimatum) and decided not to negotiate... they should to accept everything or nothing (as USA in Afghanistan in 2001 by the way)...Was it a mistake? Yes It was a mistake.. but Austria had to react... it was seen as a Weak Power, without will... without ability to defend itself...

I agree with you... but if the outrage was not the War.. the Austro-Serbian conflict was not the War....it was another local war as in 1911 between italy and Ottoman Empire... or as in 1904 between Russian Empire and Japanese Empires... the War broke out in a general and uncontrolled way when Russia movilized... and Germany had to movilized...and France did the same...

Keep the Russians away and the conflict will be short and local.

Dear Sam-Nary.. always very interesting to read and talking with you.

Regards.