An honest look at Afrocentrism...

Dec 2019
55
Los Angeles
...is basically nowhere to be found, so I decided to start a discussion. I've read most of the content on the most-linked Afrocentrist websites (africaresource.com/rasta, realhistoryww.com, stewartsynopsis.com), read Frances Cress Welsing, and seen all of Tariq Nasheed's Hidden Colors films. After taking a deep dive, and looking up the claims made, I've come to the conclusion that these sources are right about some things despite being completely insane on others. I want to discuss what they get right, and here's what I think they get right:

- There were black people who contributed to a lot of civilizations you might not think of them as being part of (Elam, Persia, Minoa, Greece)

- Artistic depictions of black people are more frequent before the Bronze Age Collapse than after it, implying mass migration and replacement between 1,200 BC and 800 BC.

- Some historical figures were at least of partial black ancestry, who are not presented as such in mainstream discourse (such as Herodotus)

- A lot of white people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that their civilizations owe anything to any culture of black people

- Mainstream discourse always redefines race in a way that will make whites look good in the current situation. A good example is the shift from assuming race is real to the idea that race is just a social construct: at the exact moment when racialist logic would conclude in crediting the black race for important things, THAT is when everyone drops racialist logic and says there's no such thing as race.

On that last note, whoever responds, please don't give me the "well race is just a construct and nobody in the past saw it that way so it's presentism to apply current labels to history and why does it matter anyway?" Just...don't. Please don't.
 
Dec 2019
55
Los Angeles
None of those sources are right especially if they are coming from Afrocentrics.
Nobody is ALL wrong. I omitted the claims made on these sites that are clearly insane (whites are albino mutants, melanin has magical properties, all civilizations were created by blacks, etc.) because I want to discuss the bits I think they are correct on.
 

Willempie

Ad Honorem
Jul 2015
5,834
Netherlands
...is basically nowhere to be found, so I decided to start a discussion. I've read most of the content on the most-linked Afrocentrist websites (africaresource.com/rasta, realhistoryww.com, stewartsynopsis.com), read Frances Cress Welsing, and seen all of Tariq Nasheed's Hidden Colors films. After taking a deep dive, and looking up the claims made, I've come to the conclusion that these sources are right about some things despite being completely insane on others. I want to discuss what they get right, and here's what I think they get right:
You got me at a really bad time.
- There were black people who contributed to a lot of civilizations you might not think of them as being part of (Elam, Persia, Minoa, Greece)
Yes where?
- Artistic depictions of black people are more frequent before the Bronze Age Collapse than after it, implying mass migration and replacement between 1,200 BC and 800 BC.
Bullshit
- Some historical figures were at least of partial black ancestry, who are not presented as such in mainstream discourse (such as Herodotus)
Yeah Herodotus was partially black because....
- A lot of white people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that their civilizations owe anything to any culture of black people
Yes I am extremely uncomfortable about it.
- Mainstream discourse always redefines race in a way that will make whites look good in the current situation. A good example is the shift from assuming race is real to the idea that race is just a social construct: at the exact moment when racialist logic would conclude in crediting the black race for important things, THAT is when everyone drops racialist logic and says there's no such thing as race.
I don't think you have any idea of what you are saying here.
On that last note, whoever responds, please don't give me the "well race is just a construct and nobody in the past saw it that way so it's presentism to apply current labels to history and why does it matter anyway?" Just...don't. Please don't.
No I wont.
 
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Willempie

Ad Honorem
Jul 2015
5,834
Netherlands
I already said
Nope you didn't. You mentioned Elam, Persia, Minoa, Greece. I am quite curious where the black people are.
Look at pictures of ancient artwork
I didn't get s skin color from them.
He had a black mother
Uhm where did you get this?
Why? I feel no threat at all to my identity as a white person from the idea that black people in ancient times created things from which my own culture was constructed
Because you are talking BS.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,691
Australia
...is basically nowhere to be found, so I decided to start a discussion. I've read most of the content on the most-linked Afrocentrist websites (africaresource.com/rasta, realhistoryww.com, stewartsynopsis.com), read Frances Cress Welsing, and seen all of Tariq Nasheed's Hidden Colors films. After taking a deep dive, and looking up the claims made, I've come to the conclusion that these sources are right about some things despite being completely insane on others. I want to discuss what they get right, and here's what I think they get right:

- There were black people who contributed to a lot of civilizations you might not think of them as being part of (Elam, Persia, Minoa, Greece)

- Artistic depictions of black people are more frequent before the Bronze Age Collapse than after it, implying mass migration and replacement between 1,200 BC and 800 BC.

- Some historical figures were at least of partial black ancestry, who are not presented as such in mainstream discourse (such as Herodotus)

- A lot of white people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that their civilizations owe anything to any culture of black people

- Mainstream discourse always redefines race in a way that will make whites look good in the current situation. A good example is the shift from assuming race is real to the idea that race is just a social construct: at the exact moment when racialist logic would conclude in crediting the black race for important things, THAT is when everyone drops racialist logic and says there's no such thing as race.

On that last note, whoever responds, please don't give me the "well race is just a construct and nobody in the past saw it that way so it's presentism to apply current labels to history and why does it matter anyway?" Just...don't. Please don't.
You could look into early first agriculture .... really early ! Although it is said to have 'not evolved further' , I am talking 'early / first ' here . ( eg Africa, Australia . )
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,384
The situation as of 2020 is fairly simple:

Africa south of the sahara is simply lagging behind.. Some countries are doing better, some are doing worse, but generally the picture is pretty grim.

  • Locals did their best to develop and basically failed
  • Then came europeans with new technology and what amounts to unlimited capital... and failed (so it is important to note that failure in sub saharan Africa is independent of the population)
  • Then the europeans left (or were made to leave in some cases) , the locals tried again and so far have been mostly failing

These serial failures are due to objective difficult conditions such as (obviously there will be some local exceptions) poor soil for agriculture, lack of domesticated large animals (such as horses and cows, except again in some areas), distances, tropical diseases, difficult terrain etc....
The area with the best conditions is South Africa... Not surprisingly this was the only real colony for the europeans, with a large white population moving in to settle (and the largest current white/european origin population of any african country)... And the country which performs best economically

Sub Saharan Africa is roughly twice the size of Europe, but was much less populous until the 20th century (and is still much less populous than China or India)

These difficult conditions are not new. Hence going back in time, to claim that there were some super advanced civilizations in the area is strange, and akin to the Atlantis myth.... Yes some areas were doing relatively well, there were cities, trade , some local production of various artefacts etc... But these areas were not "global players"....

Will this change in the future ? yes, as tech advances, there are more opportunities to negate natural disadvantages and speed up development (this is already happening in some countries).. Larger populations make for larger economies which are then able to finance further development...

Having said this , some famous "westerners" have one or several african ancestors.. This is for example the (exotic) case of Pushkin whose grandfather was black.... It is not "afro centric" to say so... but it would be strange to link Pushkin's work to some african legacy, as Pushkin was fully a product of his society...
 
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tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,384
- A lot of white people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea that their civilizations owe anything to any culture of black people
"Black people " (mostly from the new world) have been doing very well in sports and in arts (foremost music) in the past few decades... I do not think there are many people uncomfortable with the music of Bob Marley or Jazz for example....

In terms of scientific discoveries coming out of Sub saharan Africa however , the list is extremely limited.... Which is why "afro centrist" are desperately trying to portray ancient Egypt as a subsaharan civilization
 

robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,281
Lisbon, Portugal
On that last note, whoever responds, please don't give me the "well race is just a construct and nobody in the past saw it that way so it's presentism to apply current labels to history and why does it matter anyway?" Just...don't. Please don't.
Sorry, but I will do it, because that's a pertinent argument to make and related to this discussion. Even nowadays, what is defined as "black" or "white" is different across many cultures, and other cultures don't use any racial definitions at all, therefore it doesn't make any sense to describe people as "black" or "white" in the ancient world, and this topic should end it right away, but since you are insisting in debating this topic, can I please ask you what you define as "black"?
Are South Asians black? Are the Tuaregs or Ethio-semitic populations black?
 
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