An honest look at Afrocentrism...

Aug 2013
190
Finland
I wish more energy would be spent on actual African history. By this I mean the history of African peoples and nations of and especially in Africa, which remains woefully unknown, unpublished and unappreciated in the west, apart obviously from Egypt which on the other hand has been almost an obsession.

Instead of more of that, we far too much stuff like the Olmecs being of African origin. But I guess it's part of the deal that when there is a reaction to something bad (Eurocentric whitewashing) the pendulum has to swing too far the other way before some balance can be found.
 
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Dec 2019
44
Los Angeles
Sorry, I realized as I was writing it I made a reference to the subject, not a link to the subject and re edited the above post .
I see the link now, thanks. That's interesting stuff. Personally, I think...(I can't prove this, nobody can, I'm inferring based on observations in the present)...that in the future we're going to find evidence of greater civilizational advancements than what our present timeline can accommodate. I say this because

a) global, civilization-ending catastrophes are known to have happened in the past. The Bronze Age was analogous to what we have now, minus electricity, factories and internal combustion engines. It was a cluster of what we would today call superpowers, then over the course of about a century it all just collapsed at once. It's not unreasonable to propose the same thing happened much earlier too, and that the civilizations of which we have records today were really the REBUILDING after disaster.

b) the more complex technology gets, the more fragile it gets. Paper rots, batteries lose their charge, hard drives...my god..., a space shuttle left unattended will corrode and absorb into the earth entirely after a few decades, etc. Stone, the most primitive technology of all, lasts forever and ever. More complex technology also requires a bigger knowledge base to maintain that involves a bigger network of people, so if civilization goes down that will be the very last priority.

Personally, I think there could have been societies with technology comparable to what we have now. After tens of thousands of years, the only hint of it would be perhaps a concentration of some kind of chemical that doesn't occur in nature, or something like that.

I don't think it's nothing that so much mythology speaks of a long-past golden age. Considering how many stories previously dismissed as superstitious have turned out to have a basis in truth, I don't discount them.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,585
Australia
I see the link now, thanks. That's interesting stuff. Personally, I think...(I can't prove this, nobody can, I'm inferring based on observations in the present)...that in the future we're going to find evidence of greater civilizational advancements than what our present timeline can accommodate. I say this because

a) global, civilization-ending catastrophes are known to have happened in the past. The Bronze Age was analogous to what we have now, minus electricity, factories and internal combustion engines. It was a cluster of what we would today call superpowers, then over the course of about a century it all just collapsed at once. It's not unreasonable to propose the same thing happened much earlier too, and that the civilizations of which we have records today were really the REBUILDING after disaster.
I think its like a complex house of cards .... the 'trickier' and more complex it gets, the easier it is for total collapse . Today, all that would be needed would be to collapse the internet . ;)

I agree that advancements are made after rebuilding disaster , but I also think that the past (before such disasters) may have been very advanced , but not necessarily needed 'civilization' to be 'advanced' . One way of approaching this issue is looking at the many papers on ; Agriculture ; the worse mistake we ever made ?

Also the early records of Europeans in Australia describing the inhabitants and their way of life eg ; They live like Lords with no one lording it over them ..... the essential working day in good country and good season 2 - 4 hrs a day ..... a physique that never has bent to the plow or slaved bent over a desk .... they wanted for nothing leaving our trade goods on the ground ... and ran societies over 1000s of years through all sorts of climate change , managing the environment to support them .
b) the more complex technology gets, the more fragile it gets. Paper rots, batteries lose their charge, hard drives...my god..., a space shuttle left unattended will corrode and absorb into the earth entirely after a few decades, etc. Stone, the most primitive technology of all, lasts forever and ever. More complex technology also requires a bigger knowledge base to maintain that involves a bigger network of people, so if civilization goes down that will be the very last priority.
I saw a doco where a very ancient manuscript was copied down and preserved in a modern storage system . The presenter commented that at last it is now preserved . The people doing the work said not really , this system will be defunct in a few years and have to be done again ... but the original book had preserved the information for centuries .
Personally, I think there could have been societies with technology comparable to what we have now. After tens of thousands of years, the only hint of it would be perhaps a concentration of some kind of chemical that doesn't occur in nature, or something like that.

I don't think it's nothing that so much mythology speaks of a long-past golden age. Considering how many stories previously dismissed as superstitious have turned out to have a basis in truth, I don't discount them.
Well, like I said , IMO ancient advanced 'Golden Age' need not be advanced civilization . if one looks at the Avestan Golden Age .... it wasnt the technology , it was the beautiful environment , the good society and governance ... their 'aim in life' was not to please or even fear God , but to 'live a good life' .

Life can be good without international jet travel and iphones :)
 
Dec 2019
44
Los Angeles
I think its like a complex house of cards .... the 'trickier' and more complex it gets, the easier it is for total collapse . Today, all that would be needed would be to collapse the internet . ;)
Yep. I've worked enough with machines to know that the more parts there are, the more things there are to go wrong.

I agree that advancements are made after rebuilding disaster , but I also think that the past (before such disasters) may have been very advanced , but not necessarily needed 'civilization' to be 'advanced' . One way of approaching this issue is looking at the many papers on ; Agriculture ; the worse mistake we ever made ?
I think it depends on how agriculture is done and why it is developed. This article in Slate Star Codec goes over why wheat was a terrible choice to base an agricultural society on, and why it was done. Book Review: Against The Grain

I saw a doco where a very ancient manuscript was copied down and preserved in a modern storage system . The presenter commented that at last it is now preserved . The people doing the work said not really , this system will be defunct in a few years and have to be done again ... but the original book had preserved the information for centuries .
Putting stuff online makes it more accessible and easier to copy elsewhere so digitization does have its benefits. But yes, physical copies are absolutely imperative. The purpose of digital copies should be understood as limited to 1) convenient accessibility for the masses and 2) transmission to faraway places where it can be printed and stored as a physical copy there. Or many physical copies.
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,585
Australia
Yep. I've worked enough with machines to know that the more parts there are, the more things there are to go wrong.



I think it depends on how agriculture is done and why it is developed. This article in Slate Star Codec goes over why wheat was a terrible choice to base an agricultural society on, and why it was done. Book Review: Against The Grain
Good link and great review . Thanks for that . Might get that book !

Putting stuff online makes it more accessible and easier to copy elsewhere so digitization does have its benefits. But yes, physical copies are absolutely imperative. The purpose of digital copies should be understood as limited to 1) convenient accessibility for the masses and 2) transmission to faraway places where it can be printed and stored as a physical copy there. Or many physical copies.
 
Dec 2019
44
Los Angeles
Good link and great review . Thanks for that . Might get that book !
Slate Star Codex has a ton of great articles that present mindblowing information and perspectives. Completely OT but these are favorites:

Meditations On Moloch (this is what finally put the nail in the coffin of the last vestiges of my respect for libertarianism)
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,257
Personally, I think there could have been societies with technology comparable to what we have now. After tens of thousands of years, the only hint of it would be perhaps a concentration of some kind of chemical that doesn't occur in nature, or something like that.
I really do not see that as probable.... Technology comparable to what we have now has been attained through massive exploitation of natural resources, a population count in the billions, massive cities etc.... All of that leaves traces for quite a long time..... For example we find shipwrecks from 2000+ years ago, of wooden ships..... We have not found yet any shipwrecks of advanced civilization (surely some of their ships would have sunk) whose life span under water would be tens of thousands of years...

If some super deadly virus were to wipe us all out for example, traces of our civilization would endure for hundreds of thousand or even millions of years.....
 
Dec 2019
44
Los Angeles
I really do not see that as probable.... Technology comparable to what we have now has been attained through massive exploitation of natural resources, a population count in the billions, massive cities etc.... All of that leaves traces for quite a long time..... For example we find shipwrecks from 2000+ years ago, of wooden ships..... We have not found yet any shipwrecks of advanced civilization (surely some of their ships would have sunk) whose life span under water would be tens of thousands of years...

If some super deadly virus were to wipe us all out for example, traces of our civilization would endure for hundreds of thousand or even millions of years.....
I'm not so sure about that. The percentage of preserved bodies to non-preserved bodies is probably extremely low, and for technology my point was that more advanced = faster to break down. Consider that, after about 150 years of organized archeology, we JUST recently found Gobekli Tepe which is only 13k years old. Humans have been on the earth for 300k years at least, and assuming that older=always harder to find, there's a lot of room for future discoveries.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
14,257
I'm not so sure about that. The percentage of preserved bodies to non-preserved bodies is probably extremely low, and for technology my point was that more advanced = faster to break down. Consider that, after about 150 years of organized archeology, we JUST recently found Gobekli Tepe which is only 13k years old. Humans have been on the earth for 300k years at least, and assuming that older=always harder to find, there's a lot of room for future discoveries.
Tepe is quite small.... Cities like those we have todays with millions or tens of millions of population cover a vast area (Mexico city for example is about 1 500 square kilometers so is London)
 
Dec 2019
44
Los Angeles
Tepe is quite small.... Cities like those we have todays with millions or tens of millions of population cover a vast area (Mexico city for example is about 1 500 square kilometers so is London)
Small as it is, it's more than what was thought to exist that long ago. When I was in school, Mesopotamia was the origin of everything. Now we see there were things before that. Who knows how much more will be found in the future.