Ancient Pre-Roman Italy

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,630
Plus the Latins as a separate group from Romans, but then Romans speak Latin, and Romans often come from Alba Longa which isn't in Rome... can't help but ask a lot of questions really...

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The Romans were Latins as well.

Think of the Latins before Rome imposed it's hegemony over them as being similar to one of the ancient Greek ethnic groups, like the Dorians. Just as the Greeks were divided into quarrelsome city-states that often went to war with one another, so were the Latins. Rome was only one of those Latin city-states, it just proved to be the most successful. Alba Longa, if it actually existed, was another Latin city-state that was defeated by Rome and had it's population transplanted there.

Julius Caesar's paternal ancestry supposedly stretched back to Alba Longa and one of the noble families of that city that were transplanted to Rome.
 
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Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,630
Mind blown. We don't actually know if it's real or not?
Alba Longa is kind of like the Italian Troy. It probably existed, but everything we know about it is shrouded in myth and legend. That was true even in antiquity when people like Livy were writing about it.

Unlike Troy however ruins have yet to be found that anyone can conclusively point to and say "That is Alba Longa," so there are some who question whether it ever existed. Some also questioned Troy's existence until it was found.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,619
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Alba Longa is kind of like the Italian Troy. It probably existed, but everything we know about it is shrouded in myth and legend. That was true even in antiquity when people like Livy were writing about it.

Unlike Troy however ruins have yet to be found that anyone can conclusively point to and say "That is Alba Longa," so there are some who question whether it ever existed. Some also questioned Troy's existence until it was found.
Alba Longa, Lavinium, Laurentum ... the ancient legendary cities of the "Latium Vetus" [Old Latium] ...

Archaeologists have found the site of Lavinium [thanks to Pirro Ligorio]; about Laurentium the matter is a bit more complicated. The "Tabula Peutingeriana" indicates its distance from Lavinium, so that [since the site of the first city has been found] we've got a circular area of research with some promising sites.

About Alba Longa archaeology has made things not so easy: villages have been found, not a relevant city, a part an area with a certain density of burial sites which make think to the presence of an urban center. The problem is that today, in that area, there is Castel Gandolfo.
 
Feb 2018
172
EU-Germany
of the pre-roman bronze age, r.jung (2011) did an analysis of copper in bronze weapons from north_italy and south_italy dating to MBAIII-FBAII 14th-11th by chemical composition and found they were from the same source ore/mining which is now revealed to be sardinia; the interesting part is that it all post-dates the destruction of the south seen at roca-vecchia and aeolian-islands indicating a common network established by north/central italian networks after the destruction; this new network also had an impact on mycenae;

https://www.academia.edu/4972900/Mycenaean_Greece_and_Bronze_Age_Italy_Cooperation_Trade_or_War
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304716399_A_sword_of_Naue_II_type_from_Ugarit_and_the_Historical_Significance_of_Italian_type_Weaponry_in_the_Eastern_Mediterranean

the proto urbanisation process of southern etruria (incl rome) FBAIII/EIAI 11th-9th
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315823561_Exploring_territories_Bubble_Model_and_Minimum_Number_of_Contemporary_Settlements_A_case_study_from_Etruria_and_Latium_Vetus_from_the_Early_Bronze_Age_to_the_Early_Iron_Age
 
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Mar 2015
924
Europe
Does the 5th century BC language border separating Antemnae and Caeninae (traditionally Latin towns) from Fidenae (traditionally Etruscan town) show up in 9th-early 8th century as Fidenae being Villanovan culture and Antemnae and Caeninae Latial culture?
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,619
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Does the 5th century BC language border separating Antemnae and Caeninae (traditionally Latin towns) from Fidenae (traditionally Etruscan town) show up in 9th-early 8th century as Fidenae being Villanovan culture and Antemnae and Caeninae Latial culture?
Probably. My be there is something to elaborate.

The problem about Antemnae is that is not certain that it was a Sabine center [in that case it existed since the far prehistory], there are clues suggesting that Greeks created it [and then the "aborigeni" conquered it. "Aborigeni" is how in Italian we call the ancient local inhabitants of that region ... in Latin it was "Aborigenes" ... see Dionigio d'Alicarnasso].

Anyway, Caeninae and Antemnae were involved in the famous kidnapping of the Sabine women, so ...

Fidenae is a different matter. Its age and its linguistic "color" appear quite sure. It was on the other side. Considering the relative distance [30 "stadi" from Rome] ... that was the border.
 
May 2017
219
Italy
of the pre-roman bronze age, r.jung (2011) did an analysis of copper in bronze weapons from north_italy and south_italy dating to MBAIII-FBAII 14th-11th by chemical composition and found they were from the same source ore/mining which is now revealed to be sardinia; the interesting part is that it all post-dates the destruction of the south seen at roca-vecchia and aeolian-islands indicating a common network established by north/central italian networks after the destruction; this new network also had an impact on mycenae;

https://www.academia.edu/4972900/Mycenaean_Greece_and_Bronze_Age_Italy_Cooperation_Trade_or_War
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304716399_A_sword_of_Naue_II_type_from_Ugarit_and_the_Historical_Significance_of_Italian_type_Weaponry_in_the_Eastern_Mediterranean

the proto urbanisation process of southern etruria (incl rome) FBAIII/EIAI 11th-9th
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/315823561_Exploring_territories_Bubble_Model_and_Minimum_Number_of_Contemporary_Settlements_A_case_study_from_Etruria_and_Latium_Vetus_from_the_Early_Bronze_Age_to_the_Early_Iron_Age
Interesting, I knew that Sardinian copper was used in Scandinavian bronze swords and in Dalmatian ones during the bronze age, I didn't know it was used for Mainland Italian swords too, where did you find out about it?

Also I knew about the Villanovian proto-urban settlements in Etruria during the 11-9th century bc, it's also roughly the period when proto urban settlements appear in Sardinia.
 
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Feb 2018
172
EU-Germany
Interesting, I knew that Sardinian copper was used in Scandinavian bronze swords and in Dalmatian ones during the bronze age, I didn't know it was used for Mainland Italian swords too, where did you find out about it?

Also I knew about the Villanovian proto-urban settlements in Etruria during the 11-9th century bc, it's also roughly the period when proto urban settlements appear in Sardinia.
not sure if i am attaching this right


it is from one of the first two links (lead isotope analysis), there is another r.jung paper that mentions the production/slag site (in the alps) of the sardinian ores and also a north>south transport along the adriatic coast; i saw that paper on sardinian copper in scandinavia, i remember its decline being correlate to the beginnings of iron in italy (initially linked to sardinia as well) prob indicating the network being via italy altogether;
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,619
Italy, Lago Maggiore
not sure if i am attaching this right


it is from one of the first two links (lead isotope analysis), there is another r.jung paper that mentions the production/slag site (in the alps) of the sardinian ores and also a north>south transport along the adriatic coast; i saw that paper on sardinian copper in scandinavia, i remember its decline being correlate to the beginnings of iron in italy (initially linked to sardinia as well) prob indicating the network being via italy altogether;

Yes, "Italy" [there was no Italy, actually] was a land of passage. Just a note: when you deal with Sardinia and its prehistory, it's better to delimit the temporal window.

On the isle there are archaeological sites contemporary with Sumer and the Egyptian Old Kingdom. And probably a Sea People came from Sardinia in the age of Ramses. So the temporal extension of the cultures of the isle is really wide.