Ancient Pre-Roman Italy

May 2017
219
Italy
#31
not sure if i am attaching this right


it is from one of the first two links (lead isotope analysis), there is another r.jung paper that mentions the production/slag site (in the alps) of the sardinian ores and also a north>south transport along the adriatic coast; i saw that paper on sardinian copper in scandinavia, i remember its decline being correlate to the beginnings of iron in italy (initially linked to sardinia as well) prob indicating the network being via italy altogether;
" Interestingly, the objects from Italy form a quite homogeneousgroup regarding both their chemical composition and their lead isotope ratios. A comparison with published analyses of copper ores allows us to exclude the northern Alpine, the Sardinian and the Tuscan ore deposits
At the same time, there is analytical evidence for a southern Alpine origin of the copper used in Italian bronze production. The majority of the studied objects from Italy are characterised by lead isotope ratios, which coincide with those of contemporaneous copper smelting slags from various work-shop sites in the Trentino"

Doesn't this mean that the Italian objects were not made with Sardinian copper?

By the way Sardinian copper was also used for some objects found in the Eastern Mediterranean and dated to the late bronze age.
 
Last edited:
Feb 2018
164
EU-Germany
#32
Yes, "Italy" [there was no Italy, actually] was a land of passage. Just a note: when you deal with Sardinia and its prehistory, it's better to delimit the temporal window.

On the isle there are archaeological sites contemporary with Sumer and the Egyptian Old Kingdom. And probably a Sea People came from Sardinia in the age of Ramses. So the temporal extension of the cultures of the isle is really wide.
thats for sure, chronology is the a and o and the time frame as mentioned before is MBAII>FBAII (15th>11th) time frame incl sardinian copper attested as far away as scandinavia and the destructions in southern italy derived by north/central invasions and succeeded by a common metalurgical (but not typological) network; in northern italy the terremare dominate yet completely collapse by FBAI/II with the emergence of urnfield cultures, yet insights from olmo di nogara reveal not only a sword bearing (naueII grip-tongue & sauerbrunn type) warrior society but also that 16% showed combat lesions / healed trauma (canci et al) which is quite high yet corresponds to the destructions in the south as well as the martial mycenaean exchange and mercenary context; the sea people serden and sekeles could very well be the bronze age siculi (still at that time in peninsula italy) and the nuragic sards; the terremare collapse most probe indicates a movement southward as its genesis indicates a movement from eastward (pos hungarian/carpathian);
 
Feb 2018
164
EU-Germany
#33
" Interestingly, the objects from Italy form a quite homogeneousgroup regarding both their chemical composition and their lead isotope ratios. A comparison with published analyses of copper ores allows us to exclude the northern Alpine, the Sardinian and the Tuscan ore deposits
At the same time, there is analytical evidence for a southern Alpine origin of the copper used in Italian bronze production. The majority of the studied objects from Italy are characterised by lead isotope ratios, which coincide with those of contemporaneous copper smelting slags from various work-shop sites in the Trentino"

Doesn't this mean that the Italian objects were not made with Sardinian copper?

By the way Sardinian copper was also used for some objects found in the Eastern Mediterranean and dated to the late bronze age.
ill have to find the other paper, but maybe your right that it was not sardinian ore but a southern alpine source; though im pretty sure i read something on the arsenic and antemony concentrations; nonetheless a common metallurgical network established north<>south in the peninsula post the southern destruction during the 15th and if the source is in fact north italian / southern alpine and not just production its in fact an even clearer sign of a north>south invasion (apart from pottery and weaponry typology);
 
Last edited:
Oct 2017
186
United States
#34
Well at any rate I personally, that is, for me personally, wouldn't need any more evidence for the Sardinia connection... not that more evidence isn't bad.. but the image from earlier and it's similarity, as well as the ongoing evidence similarity of weapons there were most certainly then I think people who lived in Sardinia and also at times on Italy (well the area now known as Italy)

As a side note, sort of cute in my opinion! Didn't seem bad as a place to live for the time..or whatever it was they did there... I would think. I feel similarly about the Tell mound as far as Sumerian ruins etc..

I suppose it may be easier to focus on these groups that are clearly represented elsewhere... like so the Celts would of been Ligurian? Northern Italy?

I guess it's been awhile for me coming back to this topic...
 
Last edited:
May 2017
219
Italy
#35
Well at any rate I personally, that is, for me personally, wouldn't need any more evidence for the Sardinia connection... not that more evidence isn't bad.. but the image from earlier and it's similarity, as well as the ongoing evidence similarity of weapons there were most certainly then I think people who lived in Sardinia and also at times on Italy (well the area now known as Italy)

As a side note, sort of cute in my opinion! Didn't seem bad as a place to live for the time..or whatever it was they did there... I would think. I feel similarly about the Tell mound as far as Sumerian ruins etc..

I suppose it may be easier to focus on these groups that are clearly represented elsewhere... like so the Celts would of been Ligurian? Northern Italy?

I guess it's been awhile for me coming back to this topic...
At Populonia the earliest monumental tombs, the ones with the false vault, seem to have been inspired by the Nuragic monuments, in the living quarters of Populonia some Nuragic pottery has been found while in the funerary quarters Nuragic bronze artifacts like votive boats were recovered.
 
Mar 2015
853
Europe
#36
Why did Etruscan and Roman alphabet become based on Greek, not Phoenician one?

In terms of ceramic and other durable artefacts, how do the amounts of 8th century Phoenician imports compare with 8th century Greek imports to Etruria? To Latium? There never was an outright Phoenician colony in Apennine peninsula, but there were Greek ones - Pithekoussae, Cumae and others.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,252
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#37
The question is interesting.

The answer is a bit different from what probably you imagine: the Greek colonies were next to the area where the Etruscan civilization was born and Greeks were well active in that region since the far past.

Phoenicians had colonies in Italian lands, but quite far from the lands where the Etruscan civilization appeared. Sardinia and Sicily.

Just to say, Palermo has been created by the Phoenicians, in 732BCE as "Mabbonath".

In Sardinia we can mention Cagliari [Karalis] an other Phoenician colony in VIII century BCE.
 
Mar 2015
853
Europe
#38
The question is interesting.

The answer is a bit different from what probably you imagine: the Greek colonies were next to the area where the Etruscan civilization was born and Greeks were well active in that region since the far past.

Phoenicians had colonies in Italian lands, but quite far from the lands where the Etruscan civilization appeared. Sardinia and Sicily.
Really?
By my glimpse on the map, the distance from Pyrgi southeast along the coast of Apennine peninsula as far as Cumae is about as much as the distance from Pyrgi southwest across Tyrrhenian sea to Olbia on northeast corner of Sardinia.
Just to say, Palermo has been created by the Phoenicians, in 732BCE as "Mabbonath".
Meaning specifically 2 years after Syracuse, 3 years after Naxos?
In Sardinia we can mention Cagliari [Karalis] an other Phoenician colony in VIII century BCE.
So... In 9th century BC, at least early 9th century, there were no Greeks nor Phoenicians in Tyrrhenian, and copper was traded from Sardinia to Etruria. What were Nuragic people getting in return?

Sometime, somehow, Phoenicians established control of Sardinia. What happened to copper trade Sardinia to Etruria? Was it taken over by Phoenicians, and Sardinian copper started to come alongside other Phoenician trade goods? Or did the copper trade Sardinia to Etruria stop, and Etruria started to get copper of other origin? For example, Phoenicians did have access to Cyprus (Kition was Phoenician).
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
26,252
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#39
Really?
By my glimpse on the map, the distance from Pyrgi southeast along the coast of Apennine peninsula as far as Cumae is about as much as the distance from Pyrgi southwest across Tyrrhenian sea to Olbia on northeast corner of Sardinia.

Meaning specifically 2 years after Syracuse, 3 years after Naxos?


So... In 9th century BC, at least early 9th century, there were no Greeks nor Phoenicians in Tyrrhenian, and copper was traded from Sardinia to Etruria. What were Nuragic people getting in return?

Sometime, somehow, Phoenicians established control of Sardinia. What happened to copper trade Sardinia to Etruria? Was it taken over by Phoenicians, and Sardinian copper started to come alongside other Phoenician trade goods? Or did the copper trade Sardinia to Etruria stop, and Etruria started to get copper of other origin? For example, Phoenicians did have access to Cyprus (Kition was Phoenician).
There are clues that Phoenicias in IX century BCE traded with the Nuragic people [Tharros and Nora present evidences of Phoenician presence]. It was just the trade opportunity to persuade more and more Phoenician families to settle there and this created the base for the Phoenician colonization.

It's easy to determine when Phoenicians settled in a lasting way: they built proper cities, while Nuragic clans lived in villages. And we've got a Phoenician stela [the stela of Nora] dated between the end of IX century BCE and the beginning of VIII century BCE.

About what happened after that Phoenician settled, some scholars have noted that two different "markets" cohesisted: a "Sardinian market" and a "Phoenician market", that is to say that local Nuragic populations kept on running their own trades with the Etruscan centers, while [overall in the South of Sardinia] the Phoenicians started their own trades with the Etruscan centers.

About imports, it seems that Phoenicians ruled: Etruscan pottery has been found in Phoenician and Nuragic sites, but with a rate of 91% vs 9%. Evidently Nuragic villages had less economical possibilities to import from Etruscan exporters. "Mercato sardo" e "mercato fenicio": materiali etruschi e interazioni culturali nella Sardegna arcaica, in "Materiali e contesti nell'età del Ferro sardo", (Atti della Giornata di Studi, San Vero Milis, 25 maggio 2012), in Rivista di Studi Fenici
 
May 2017
219
Italy
#40
There are clues that Phoenicias in IX century BCE traded with the Nuragic people [Tharros and Nora present evidences of Phoenician presence]. It was just the trade opportunity to persuade more and more Phoenician families to settle there and this created the base for the Phoenician colonization.

It's easy to determine when Phoenicians settled in a lasting way: they built proper cities, while Nuragic clans lived in villages. And we've got a Phoenician stela [the stela of Nora] dated between the end of IX century BCE and the beginning of VIII century BCE.

About what happened after that Phoenician settled, some scholars have noted that two different "markets" cohesisted: a "Sardinian market" and a "Phoenician market", that is to say that local Nuragic populations kept on running their own trades with the Etruscan centers, while [overall in the South of Sardinia] the Phoenicians started their own trades with the Etruscan centers.

About imports, it seems that Phoenicians ruled: Etruscan pottery has been found in Phoenician and Nuragic sites, but with a rate of 91% vs 9%. Evidently Nuragic villages had less economical possibilities to import from Etruscan exporters. "Mercato sardo" e "mercato fenicio": materiali etruschi e interazioni culturali nella Sardegna arcaica, in "Materiali e contesti nell'età del Ferro sardo", (Atti della Giornata di Studi, San Vero Milis, 25 maggio 2012), in Rivista di Studi Fenici
Yes though it should be mentioned that most of the inhabitants of the Phoenician cities in Sardinia were of Nuragic origins:

Quoting Piero Bartoloni, an archaeologist that has excavated Phoenician cities in Sardinia for all his life:


"The first evidence of a stable presence of the Phoenicians, the last to reach Sardinia after the Mycenaean navigators, North-Syrians and Cypriots, can be dated around 780/770 BC. and also in Sulky there are clear clues, also attributable to this period. In fact, the oldest objects found in the area of ​​the town can be dated no later than 780/770 BC. Thanks to these archaeological elements, which approach the founding date of the ancient Sulky to that of Carthage, which traditionally arises in 814 BC, at the current state of research the city is considered the oldest among those built by the Phoenicians in Sardinia . It is not even remotely conceivable that all the inhabitants of Phoenician culture who settled in Sulky and subsequently Mount Sirai as well as in all the other Phoenician foundation cities of the Sardinian coast were of Eastern origin. We must think rather of a mixed population composed of a minority of Phoenicians of the East and a majority of inhabitants of Nuragic lineage. The presence of strong groups of people of native origin and the real possibility of mixed marriages especially in the first years of the foundation of the city is suggested for example by some testimonies related to the oldest funerary practices in use in the district and some everyday objects, as well as the pots, which, as an exterior form, were undoubtedly of a Nuragic type, but were manufactured using the lathe and, therefore, with a technology imported from the Phoenicians. The village was planted on a ridge formed by trachitic rocks or, better ignimbrite ones, which ran parallel to the coast and separated from the hills behind it, constituting a further natural defense. Thus, the Phoenicians settled permanently in Sulky around 780/770 BC. building an inhabited center that from the beginning was of considerable size and that spread out on the slope to the east of the old Nuragic tower. The original urban agglomeration occupied an area of ​​about fifteen hectares, practically of equal extension to that relative to the inhabited center of the Middle Ages. The Phoenician necropolis instead extended along the coast south of the city, behind the ancient port and had an extension of about three hectares. the global urban structure of the settlement is not known in detail nor the totality of the original road network nor do we know the detailed topography of the ancient Phoenician settlement, but only a part of the wall structures that compose them emerge in the modern urban area. It has been found that the houses from the Phoenician period were of the usual type in the motherland and generally in the whole area of ​​the Near East, that is, formed by several rooms gathered around a central courtyard.""

Not to mention that there existed centers which had a mixed Nuragic-Phoenician plant in the South West of Sardinia such as the citadel of Nuraghe Sirai:
https://www.academia.edu/31629324/L_età_del_Ferro_del_Nuraghe_Sirai_Layers_1_2016_

And that mixed Nuragic-Phoenician pottery was produced in many native Nuragic settlements such as Sant'Imbenia and exported all around the Mediterranean as far as Iberia, together with purely Nuragic and Phoenician prototypes: Ripensando i contatti fra Sardegna e Penisola Iberica all?alba del I millennio a.C. Vecchie e nuove evidenze | Massimo Botto - Academia.edu

And that there is extensive evidence of cooperation between Sardinian and Phoenician sailors especially along the routes towards Iberia and Etruria where Nuragic pottery is found in dozens of sites: http://www.academia.edu/29053324/Th...en_precolonization_and_the_first_colonization

http://www.academia.edu/2470255/Le_..._Iberica_nei_primi_secoli_del_I_millennio_a.C

It seems that Sardinian wine from the West of the island was exportedtowards Iberia, North Africa and Etruria in amphorae of mixed Nuragic-Phoenician tradition, which are also known as Sant'Imbenia amphorae

During the 9-7th century Phoenicians did not control Sardinia, but lived among the locals in the urban centers of the South West of the island, the island was, or at least part of it, conquered only by the end of the 6th century bc when Carthaginians attacked the independent Phoenician cities of Sardinia conquering them and setting many of them on fire, I'll quote Bartoloni again:

"...In any case, thanks to its vast commercial network and its two ports straddling the isthmus, the lagoon and the Gulf of Palmas, the city quickly became a metropolis of great wealth and started to control the territory of south western Sardinia which still today bears the name of Sulcis. The testimonies of its commercial activities have emerged from the excavations carried out in the town and speak to us from the first half of the eighth century BC. of stable relations with Tyre and with the other Phoenician cities of the eastern motherland, of links with Cadiz and with the other Phoenician centers of Andalusia, of very close exchanges with the Etruscan world and with the Greek environment of Euboea and the Magna Greecian colonies. The Phoenician community spent a period of about two hundred and fifty years of quiet commercial, agricultural and domestic activity in the town of Sulky until - around 540 BC, when Carthage, a Phoenician city of Tyrian origins located on the African coast between Sicily and Sardinia, following an imperialist policy aimed at conquering the coastal territories of the western Mediterranean, decided to set foot in Sardinia to take possession of it and effectively insert it into its metropolitan territory. For some time now, the North African city seemed to have expressed its expansionist ambitions, establishing some colonies in the North African area, but only around the middle of the 6th century BC these intentions really took shape in all their violence and drama with the invasion of the western part of Sicily and with the consequent conquest of Motya and of the Phoenician centers present in the territory. In fact, with two successive invasions, the one which happened precisely around 540 and the other towards 520 b.C., Carthage invaded Sardinia. The succession of events is widely known, that is, how an army commanded by General Malco, already victorious in Sicily, came to the island first. It is told by old and unfortunately scarce sources that the Carthaginian commander, after ups and downs, was severely defeated, probably by a coalition of Phoenician cities whose head was probably Sulky, and forced to re-embark towards Carthage. It is not to be excluded that against the Carthaginian army also nuragic troops intervened, both as allies, and as mercenaries of the Phoenician cities. Although temporarily defeated, Carthage continued to develop its hegemonic policy aimed at supremacy in the waters of the Tyrrhenian Sea. Proof of this are the events that resulted in the naval battle fought in the Sardinian Sea, probably to be found in the waters of Corsica, perhaps in Alalia, and the alliance with the Etruscan city of Caere, now Cerveteri, highlighted by the well-known gold plates of Pyrgi.

Later - around 520 b.C. - Carthage made another attempt and its armies passed under the command of Asdrubale and Hamilcar sons of Magone, conqueror of the Iberian peninsula. This time the Carthaginian armies defeated the resistance opposed by the inhabitants of the Phoenician cities of Sardinia. In fact, as evidenced by the significant traces of destruction, the hostilities of the North African city were mainly directed towards these centers and therefore especially towards Sulky. So, after fierce fighting, Carthage firmly took possession of Sardinia, so much so that, already in 509 BC, in the framework of the first peace treaty with Rome, handed down from the Greek historian Polibio, the island, if it was not literally assimilated to its metropolitan territory , was strictly controlled so that foreign sailors were prevented from landing and from the realization of any form of trade if Carthaginian officials were not present. In any case, like most of the Phoenician cities of Sardinia, Sulky also came out severely damaged by the Carthaginian conquest. The African metropolis, which had conquered Sardinia to take over the considerable agricultural resources of the island, brought settlers transported from the coasts of North Africa to the Sulcitan city. Many areas of the island, especially the hilly ones, were abandoned because they were unsuitable for the landowner-type agriculture carried out by Carthage, while numerous new settlements arose in the plains. So, while in the previous centuries the island had constituted a fundamental node of exchange between East and West and between the North and the South of the Mediterranean, the entirety of Sardinia was practically assimilated by the metropolitan territory of Carthage and was totally and strictly closed to internal trade. In particular, all imports from Etruria and Greece ceased, while only those subjected to Carthage's mediation were permitted and under the strict control of its officials."

Also another note, what you said about Etruscan imports applies to a rather advanced period, when Etruscan pottery was valuable (7-4th century bc) and not to the earliest periods when there only was Villanovian pottery which wasn't worth much.

So... In 9th century BC, at least early 9th century, there were no Greeks nor Phoenicians in Tyrrhenian, and copper was traded from Sardinia to Etruria. What were Nuragic people getting in return?
Mainly tin and iron, Nuragic presence was mostly focused in the area of the Colline Metallifere where the metal deposits are.
 
Last edited:

Similar History Discussions