Ancient Pre-Roman Italy

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,332
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#71
Terramare = Pelasgians?

The diaspora of the Terramare ...

according to Andrea Cardelli there could be even a recall of this event in the myth of the Pelasgians.

it possible that the dramatic collapse of an economic, social, political and cultural sys-tem as significant as that of the Terramare may have left a mark in the memory of succeeding centuries? One testimony comes from Dionysius of Halicarnassus in his first book of the Ro-man Antiquities and regards the dramatic fate that befell the Pelasgians.
"The Collapse of the Terramare Culture", https://www.academia.edu/5808394/Th...al_System_during_the_late_Bronze_Age_in_Italy

He goes on ...

The testimony regarding the crisis that befell the Pelasgian people is situated chronologi-cally two generations before the Trojan War (around halfway through the XIII century BC) but continued shortly beyond, claims Dionysius, the end of hostilities. It is thus a period that dates back to around 1,150 years before Dionysius wrote his account, and coincides with the time of the Terramare crisis.
 
Feb 2018
118
EU-Germany
#72
olmo di nogara is an important site of the terramare civ and isotopic analysis has revealed a high consumption of millet(1) in contrast to contemporary southern and central italian(2) sites as well as contemporary further westward france(4); this could indicate a migratory event from the east (carpatho/hungary) into the po-valley; somewhat underlined by the chronology of millet consumption in italy(3) as with the EBA (polada linked) necropolis of arano not showing such a based diet, yet the contemporary EBA friulan site sedegliano does showing signs of it ie highlighting the introduction of the new plant in italy itself, as than MBA terramare{olmo di nogara could not get enough of it;

(4) millet consumption in bronze age france vs north italy


this east>west migratory genesis for the terramare is also further underlined by other aspects of the archeological data such as the sword typology specially type boiu-sauerbrunn(similar migration as the millet plant) and the introduction of the horse; r.dews 2017p164 'The Boiu had a secondary center, however, in northern Italy.135 Stephan Foltiny, who studied the evolution from the rapier to the slashing sword, counted twentyone early Boiu-Keszthely rapiers, coming from nineteen sites.136 Eight of the nineteen sites known to Foltiny are in northeast Italy, all in the Udine and Treviso provinces(again, the recent finds at Olmo di Nogara have extended the Boiu zone into the northern reaches of the Terremare culture)' r.drews 1993 p204 'Not until the Middle Bronze Age do we find a diffuse presence of the horse, which is demonstrated by the numerous findings of horse bones in the terramare settlements and indirectly by the discovery of many bits made of deer horn and the first cartwheels (De Grossi Mazzorin l994: l996b; De Grossi Mazzorin. Riedel & Tagliacozzo 1998).Furthermore, this is the period in which the first long swords appear in Italian metallurgy'

(1) Stable isotope evidence for the consumption of millet and other plants in Bronze Age Italy | Mary Anne Tafuri and Oliver Craig - Academia.edu
(2) Dietary variability during Bronze Age in central Italy: first results | Jacopo Moggi-Cecchi, Alessandra Varalli, Gwenaëlle Goude, and Adriana Moroni - Academia.edu
(3) https://www.academia.edu/24385917/D...ce_from_Arano_di_Cellore_Illasi_Verona_Italy_
(4) https://journals.openedition.org/pm/782?lang=en
 
Oct 2017
186
United States
#73
Wait what time period are we in with the Terramere...

I just realize I have read this "sudden profound collapse" multiple times... and it was with the the other Mediterranean civilizations around the time of the "Sea People's invasion"

Essentially the Sea People's event 1300 ish BC was simultaneous with collapses elsewhere, of course conventional history covered the events with respect to Egypt, Sumeria, etc..

Could this have been the source? Maybe this collapse was simply the collapse that happened in Italy, since history normally doesn't talk about the story of Italy with respect to the sea peoples (in fact they suggest that the Etruscans for instance maybe were the Sea Peoples)

I think the crisis is generally posited date-wise to be before the Trojan war, by how much I'm not sure, essentially earlier though.
 
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Oct 2017
186
United States
#74
the samnites are said to derive from the sabines(>sabelli) who in turn derived from the umbrians [umbri>sabini>sanniti] in which the 'ver sacrum' played a central role 'The Samnite males are considered to be farmer-warriors organized by male kinship ties' the language is attested to be IE sabellic branch Oscan and superseding a previous sabellic group attested as pre-samnite; the samnites are usually set in a martial context and samnite warrior motives often appear on local greek vases and at the alfedena necropolis (6th-5thbc) 17% of male skulls did display combat lesions;
http://www.lettere.uniroma1.it/sites/default/files/817/Alfedena AJPA 2007.pdf
Ok so more Italic and IE less Germanic (or just not germanic).. for both Umbri and Samnites, as well as even the Veneti.

Well at any rate the wikipedia was very confused about the Veneti and especially the Raeti, there were many possibilities based on the existence of German words and yet there were simultaneously celtic and indo european influences in general.

So we can probably say Indo European sliding into Latin/Sabine in the middle/south, that makes more sense than where I was imagining the two divided by a dissimilar group (Etruscans and Samnites separated by Umbri, for example)

The Raeti then are still sort of confusing.. which still leaves Liguriae I suppose. I think there are different spellings for some of these.

Also does anyone find the story of Sicily to be rather straightforward by comparison? For instance I read that the very term Sicily becomes from the earliest inhabitants Sicilae I think or something? (sic)

The word denotes the group as a whole, plus, many comers and goers, for instance, Greeks, on multiple occassions, Romans, etc.

But essentially the story of Sicily is likely some very early, pre-Iron age inhabitants with uninterrupted presence? Well aside from when the isalnd was being fought over...

Er, an aside, anyway, Latin and Sabine.. I feel like I've lost track of them in the middle of all this.
 
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Feb 2018
118
EU-Germany
#75
Wait what time period are we in with the Terramere...

I just realize I have read this "sudden profound collapse" multiple times... and it was with the the other Mediterranean civilizations around the time of the "Sea People's invasion"

Essentially the Sea People's event 1300 ish BC was simultaneous with collapses elsewhere, of course conventional history covered the events with respect to Egypt, Sumeria, etc..

Could this have been the source? Maybe this collapse was simply the collapse that happened in Italy, since history normally doesn't talk about the story of Italy with respect to the sea peoples (in fact they suggest that the Etruscans for instance maybe were the Sea Peoples)

I think the crisis is generally posited date-wise to be before the Trojan war, by how much I'm not sure, essentially earlier though.
from what i know the terramare existed during the MBA middle bronze age and RBA(1) recent bronze age periods ~1500-1200bc with beginnings in the 16th and a rapid collapse in the 12th RBA(2); in chronology its contemporary to the apennine>sub-apennine complex and the LHIII period and as i understand it the terramare in the later phase had a strong influence from the sub-apennine zone; in #25 there are links to metallurgical analysis which suggest a common network spanning all of italy and which played its part in the east mediterranean and pos also the sea-people phenomena itself;

the collapse of the terramare is pointing to its over production/usage and specially deforestation, colliding with a warmer climate and drought -http://www.theplasmaverse.com/pdfs/terramare-culture-poviglio-santa-rosa-italy-watermanagement-emilia-po-valley-black-earth.pdf
yet there might be an event that was unique to the collapse as the surrounding zones did not suffer from the same climatic(dry) changes, the terramare settlements were always characterised by its flood-defenses like the palafittes, ditches and gabbioni(bank revetment) ie an imminent and constant threat that increased with the deforestation, so such a rapid disaster could also have happened;
 
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Apr 2018
190
Italy
#77
Latins, Sabines, Samnites... a collage of terms and I can after a bit of reading understand better what a picture of the area might be...

But basically I don't really know of any places or advanced research into this area.. basically I'm just curious what the relationships between the different groups were and how that was later put into the picture of Rome, overlap, etc.

Are there any interesting books or things of that nature on the topic that people could recommend? It's just a fairly recent interest so I'm not really sure what to make of it all.

I guess the short answer is that there were simply a number of Indo-European tribes in the region, and had their typical or atypical differences but the geography of Italy, being close to Africa, Gaul, Epirus, etc all simultaneously seem to make it a kind of cultural hub of sorts, where the actions of these other parties somewhat displaced the native inhabitants I would imagine.

Latin belonged to the Latino Faliscan Italic branch that includes Latins, Faliscans, Siculi and Veneti. They shoud be enterd in Italy around III millennium BC.

Than there was the Osco Umbrian Italic branch that includes Osci, Umbrians, Sabines, Samnites, Piceni, Marrucini, Marsi, Peligni, Lucani, Bruttii. They should be entered in Italy around XIII century BC.

The Iapigi were Illyrian people located in Apulia.

Etruscans were not indoeuropean and their origin is uncertain.

Ligurians there are speculation if they were Indoeuropeans or not.

Nuragic civilization, a non indoeuropean civilization in Sardinia

Siculi, Elimyans and Sicanians in Sicily, the first IE, the others not.

Oenotrians origin is uncertain also.
 
Oct 2017
186
United States
#78
from what i know the terramare existed during the MBA middle bronze age and RBA(1) recent bronze age periods ~1500-1200bc with beginnings in the 16th and a rapid collapse in the 12th RBA(2); in chronology its contemporary to the apennine>sub-apennine complex and the LHIII period and as i understand it the terramare in the later phase had a strong influence from the sub-apennine zone; in #25 there are links to metallurgical analysis which suggest a common network spanning all of italy and which played its part in the east mediterranean and pos also the sea-people phenomena itself;

the collapse of the terramare is pointing to its over production/usage and specially deforestation, colliding with a warmer climate and drought -http://www.theplasmaverse.com/pdfs/terramare-culture-poviglio-santa-rosa-italy-watermanagement-emilia-po-valley-black-earth.pdf
yet there might be an event that was unique to the collapse as the surrounding zones did not suffer from the same climatic(dry) changes, the terramare settlements were always characterised by its flood-defenses like the palafittes, ditches and gabbioni(bank revetment) ie an imminent and constant threat that increased with the deforestation, so such a rapid disaster could also have happened;
It sounds like a disaster could be either natural or perhaps militaristic to me, but one way or another i suppose the consequences were quite severe....

I really think there must be something to the whole Bronze Age collapse as being connected to invasions and Sea People's and it being a major level event... perhaps even like a "world war zero" as some suggest...

The entire period 1500 BC to 1000 BC or so somewhere across that period it's the same sort of wave of events, anyway it's all really interesting to me.
 
Oct 2017
186
United States
#79
Latin belonged to the Latino Faliscan Italic branch that includes Latins, Faliscans, Siculi and Veneti. They shoud be enterd in Italy around III millennium BC.

Than there was the Osco Umbrian Italic branch that includes Osci, Umbrians, Sabines, Samnites, Piceni, Marrucini, Marsi, Peligni, Lucani, Bruttii. They should be entered in Italy around XIII century BC.

The Iapigi were Illyrian people located in Apulia.

Etruscans were not indoeuropean and their origin is uncertain.

Ligurians there are speculation if they were Indoeuropeans or not.

Nuragic civilization, a non indoeuropean civilization in Sardinia

Siculi, Elimyans and Sicanians in Sicily, the first IE, the others not.

Oenotrians origin is uncertain also.
I think this is interesting, I feel like given the close contacts between Illyrian.. like I think when talking about "Ancient Italy" it's probably important to say Italy and it's surrounding environments...

I definitely think this group, which is maybe another name in the same group should be considered...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians

That entire region and the people of Dalmatia in general were definitely more closely connected to the Italian populations in Italy then to other surrounding areas, even Greece potentially...

Yet it's often hard to seem to show people that they even existed, in some ways... er not on historum of course,

I also read it seems like the Raeti, Venetic, and LIburnians were somewhat connected, so I feel like the NE quadrant of Italy and west Balkans was a very fertile and fervent culture, connected by ships and trading..

It may have even extended into modern day Switzerland and Austria to an extent.

Then there's the Etruscans, and or/ Villanovans which we know existed and collapsed but not necessarily a ton about them, but given their proximity to the Etruscans they must have had some relationship of some kind..

Ok recapping I think the Illyrian, or region of Apulia, overlaps with Liburnia.. anyway it more specifically seems to be the group along the coast.

To me the NE Italy is a clearer picture, I wonder about the NW now though moreso.
 
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