Antifascist resistance in France and Serbia durning World War II

macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
4,105
Slovenia, EU
Did the Gypsies sell information to the Italians because the Italians offered them good money for this?

Also, Yes, that's absolutely atrocious--probably just as bad as the Nazis killing entire Jewish families. :(
I'm not sure but it was a practice for occupators to get local informants and guides. I think there were rewards issued on partisans and information regarding them.
 
Mar 2019
1,956
Kansas
Why in the world were the Gypsies labeled as traitors by the Communists when Nazis were killing them en masse, though?
If it wasn't for the Jews. Gypsies would be the most hated people in history. Any excuse for a good killing really
 
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deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
Probably some of them sold some information to Italians because they knew terrain very well and were mostly outside. As a consequence partisans were killing entire families with infants.
Do You have some more info/works/data on this?
 

macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
4,105
Slovenia, EU
Do You have some more info/works/data on this?
No, I was reading books on a theme and in Slovenian pretty long ago. Other Slovenian Shtajerc also remembers reading about it in this theme. There was one cave where tens of Gypsies were dropped. Their population in Province of Ljubljana was less than 1000, half or more were killed by partisans.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
No, I was reading books on a theme and in Slovenian pretty long ago. Other Slovenian Shtajerc also remembers reading about it in this theme. There was one cave where tens of Gypsies were dropped. Their population in Province of Ljubljana was less than 1000, half or more were killed by partisans.
Thank You.

(it's just that unlike Jewish, it's much more difficult to find materials on Gypsies - therefrom my question)
 
Last edited:
May 2013
196
USA
Only in Slovenia there are over 700 killing grounds where they killed 200-300.000 people in two months after end of WWII.

Slovene Lands in World War II - Wikipedian.
Apparently nobody else bothered to respond to this load of crock. I well remember your admiration toward all things German/Austrian and anti Serb prism through which you pass everything so this is a waste of response but I’ll do it just for the members not familiar with former Yugoslavia.

1. There were no more than 30,000 to 40,000 Nazi collaborators executed in the entire Bleiburg-Kocevski Rog period, this including more than a dozen formations, most of which were fanatical Ustasha scum. Considering their decision to continue illegally fighting even after May 8th 1945 and VE day, even after their SS idols gave up on fight, it’s a shame so many managed to survive and resurrect the same ideology in the late 1980s thus leading to break up of Yugoslavia again.
2. Considering what German population did during the WWII in occupied Yugoslavia and how willingly they massacred civilian (mostly Serb) population while serving in Waffen SS Prinz Eugen and various other polizei and volunteer units and their overwhelming support for Nazism, they had it much more easier than for example, what Czechs did to them in Sudetenland starting in 1945.
3. To state that “300,000 people” were killed in Partisan retributions is an outright lie as it attempts to assign some 1/3rd of the total innocent civilian population (of all former Yugoslav ethnicities albeit again mostly Serb) killed in Yugoslavia during that war. It is highly offensive to group Serb, Jewish, Roma victims of Jasenovac Concetration Camp with fanatical Ustashi and other collaborators. This is, by the way, the typical modus operandi of modern Croatian right-wing nationalists (the attempt to over-inflate the number of dead collaborators at Bleiburg sometimes ten fold in order to “even things out” with Jasenovac crimes), so it is peculiar that so called Slovene nationalist is using the same tactic.
4. I am sure there were innocent people killed in Slovenia and on the Austrian border in the immediate aftermath of WWII. There were many good people in German ethnic minority that was expelled after the war, hell, I’m sure there were some decent people in Ustashi uniforms as well, but that does not detract from the fact that no matter how much revisionism tries otherwise, the truth will remain about real victims and real chronology of WWII in former Yugoslavia.
 
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macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
4,105
Slovenia, EU
From 200-300.000 people were killed in Slovenia in 2 months after end of WWII, they were never thoroughly counted, They are burried i nover 700 mass graves and new and new are emerging.
STATISTICS OF YUGOSLAVIA'S GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER

Lines 55-65 on a table to start with.

1. Killing grounds were not only Rog and Bleiburg (and nobody was ever claiming that Bleiburg is in Slovenia) but also very big with tens of thousands of victims were around Celje and Maribor, in mineshafts of Zasavje and to north of Croatian Rijeka.
2. You are excusing one massacres with others which tells a lot. I won't ever make excuses for nazis and collaborators, nobody needs to make them for communists.
3. Jasenovac was having less than 100.000 victims although in Tito's Yugoslavia it was proclaimed that a number was over 0.5 million. Again you are proclaiming a fraction of victims (Croats) as majority of them. Many civilians were also killed besides captured soldiers of all kinds of anti communist formations (Croats, Serbs, Slovenes) and German soldiers.
4. Croats were having a regular army- home guard and their SS- Ustashi. I'm sure there were not many good people there as they were volunteers. Slovenian German minority of about 12.000 escaped to north on time, I think that some others in Vojvodina were not so lucky. Your picture is blurred and simplified in my opinion.

Please what are your sources?
 
Last edited:
May 2013
196
USA
From 200-300.000 people were killed in Slovenia in 2 months after end of WWII, they were never thoroughly counted, They are burried i nover 700 mass graves and new and new are emerging.
STATISTICS OF YUGOSLAVIA'S GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER

Lines 55-65 on a table to start with.

1. Killing grounds were not only Rog and Bleiburg (and nobody was ever claiming that Bleiburg is in Slovenia) but also very big with tens of thousands of victims were around Celje and Maribor, in mineshafts of Zasavje and to north of Croatian Rijeka.
2. You are excusing one massacres with others which tells a lot. I won't ever make excuses for nazis and collaborators, nobody needs to make them for communists.
3. Jasenovac was having less than 100.000 victims although in Tito's Yugoslavia it was proclaimed that a number was over 0.5 million. Again you are proclaiming a fraction of victims (Croats) as majority of them. Many civilians were also killed besides captured soldiers of all kinds of anti communist formations (Croats, Serbs, Slovenes) and German soldiers.
4. Croats were having a regular army- home guard and their SS- Ustashi. I'm sure there were not many good people there as they were volunteers. Slovenian German minority of about 12.000 escaped to north on time, I think that some others in Vojvodina were not so lucky. Your picture is blurred and simplified in my opinion.

Please what are your sources?

The fact that you are using Rummel as a credible source (quoting some one million killed by Tito’s communists) is almost laughable, no offense. I can quote anybody from Tomasevich to Neubacher to Barry Lituchy, but I’m not going to. This is not a serious site where historical research is well received, just look at those “who was the best general” types of topics open on daily basis. Just to clarify two things - in no shape or form do I support Tito’s communism. My paternal family suffered and had nearly all of the land stolen after the war despite that on maternal side everyone was in Partisans, with great uncle fighting against SS Prinz Eugen during the Battle of Sutjeska, at the age 17.

Tito was not a good guy and his lack of serious planning at least partially lead to disaster of the 1990s but to compare his regime with Nazism and what Ustasha did is not objective at all. Second, the war crimes against German forces or Nazi collaborators simply cannot be compared with what my and other families suffered in Jasenovac and Independent State of Croatia, not by scale nor by sheer brutality. I do not for a moment believe that 700,000 Serbs were killed in Jasenovac which was official socialist Yugoslav propaganda but I am not buying “less than 100,000 victims” either. Ustasha burned documents twice, in 1943 and again in April 1945, and this is only for documented victims processed through the camp itself. Those that were slaughtered en masse in Gradina or before the camp itself (for example, tens of thousands of Serbs from Kozara after “pacification’ in summer 1942) far outnumber 100,000 victims. Jasenovac contained 5 smaller camps as you are well aware. As someone smarter pointed out, those 83,000 documented victims (my great-grandfather’s name is there and we have his last letter sent home before they killed him) of Jasenovac THUS FAR, is actually more known names than poor victims from Auschwitz itself. Yet, nobody in their sane mind doubts that more than a million Jewish and other victims perished there.

If you want the completely objective, non-Serb, point of view, read Barry Lituchy’s seminal book on the subject. It is stomach churning, indeed.
 
Sep 2019
320
Slovenia
Huge resistance in Serbia in 1941 was not productive. Chetniks were first kind of allies of communist led partisans but soon realised that Serbian male population will be exterminated if resistance will continue on that way. German reprisals were to great. Plus chetniks knew that the goal of communists is sovietization of Yugoslavia by force. Later chetniks were seen by communists as even a bigger enemy than NDH ustasha which indeed made a big ethnic cleansing of Serbs and Jews.
 
Oct 2011
474
Croatia
Apparently nobody else bothered to respond to this load of crock. I well remember your admiration toward all things German/Austrian and anti Serb prism through which you pass everything so this is a waste of response but I’ll do it just for the members not familiar with former Yugoslavia.

1. There were no more than 30,000 to 40,000 Nazi collaborators executed in the entire Bleiburg-Kocevski Rog period, this including more than a dozen formations, most of which were fanatical Ustasha scum. Considering their decision to continue illegally fighting even after May 8th 1945 and VE day, even after their SS idols gave up on fight, it’s a shame so many managed to survive and resurrect the same ideology in the late 1980s thus leading to break up of Yugoslavia again.
2. Considering what German population did during the WWII in occupied Yugoslavia and how willingly they massacred civilian (mostly Serb) population while serving in Waffen SS Prinz Eugen and various other polizei and volunteer units and their overwhelming support for Nazism, they had it much more easier than for example, what Czechs did to them in Sudetenland starting in 1945.
3. To state that “300,000 people” were killed in Partisan retributions is an outright lie as it attempts to assign some 1/3rd of the total innocent civilian population (of all former Yugoslav ethnicities albeit again mostly Serb) killed in Yugoslavia during that war. It is highly offensive to group Serb, Jewish, Roma victims of Jasenovac Concetration Camp with fanatical Ustashi and other collaborators. This is, by the way, the typical modus operandi of modern Croatian right-wing nationalists (the attempt to over-inflate the number of dead collaborators at Bleiburg sometimes ten fold in order to “even things out” with Jasenovac crimes), so it is peculiar that so called Slovene nationalist is using the same tactic.
4. I am sure there were innocent people killed in Slovenia and on the Austrian border in the immediate aftermath of WWII. There were many good people in German ethnic minority that was expelled after the war, hell, I’m sure there were some decent people in Ustashi uniforms as well, but that does not detract from the fact that no matter how much revisionism tries otherwise, the truth will remain about real victims and real chronology of WWII in former Yugoslavia.
Maybe, but people were not executed only on Bleiburg. Executions continued for several years after the war, and considering how Yugoslavia did not have to fight the war at the same time, few hundred thousand dead is not unreasonable.

Also, mass murders done by Partisans during the war are not qualitatively much different from what Ustashi did. Ustashi killed whomever they believed a threat - innocent or not - and Partisans and Chetniks did the same. Croats massacred Serb civilians, Serbs massacred Croat and German civilians... many Ustashi (and Partisan, and Chetnik) units were so-called "wild" units, irregular militia that came about as a result of atrocities done by other participants in the conflict. And atrocities were then returned with atrocities.

Communists too had their own concentration camps - Jasenovac continued operating under new management after the war, likely until Goli Otok was opened.

The fact that you are using Rummel as a credible source (quoting some one million killed by Tito’s communists) is almost laughable, no offense. I can quote anybody from Tomasevich to Neubacher to Barry Lituchy, but I’m not going to. This is not a serious site where historical research is well received, just look at those “who was the best general” types of topics open on daily basis. Just to clarify two things - in no shape or form do I support Tito’s communism. My paternal family suffered and had nearly all of the land stolen after the war despite that on maternal side everyone was in Partisans, with great uncle fighting against SS Prinz Eugen during the Battle of Sutjeska, at the age 17.

Tito was not a good guy and his lack of serious planning at least partially lead to disaster of the 1990s but to compare his regime with Nazism and what Ustasha did is not objective at all. Second, the war crimes against German forces or Nazi collaborators simply cannot be compared with what my and other families suffered in Jasenovac and Independent State of Croatia, not by scale nor by sheer brutality. I do not for a moment believe that 700,000 Serbs were killed in Jasenovac which was official socialist Yugoslav propaganda but I am not buying “less than 100,000 victims” either. Ustasha burned documents twice, in 1943 and again in April 1945, and this is only for documented victims processed through the camp itself. Those that were slaughtered en masse in Gradina or before the camp itself (for example, tens of thousands of Serbs from Kozara after “pacification’ in summer 1942) far outnumber 100,000 victims. Jasenovac contained 5 smaller camps as you are well aware. As someone smarter pointed out, those 83,000 documented victims (my great-grandfather’s name is there and we have his last letter sent home before they killed him) of Jasenovac THUS FAR, is actually more known names than poor victims from Auschwitz itself. Yet, nobody in their sane mind doubts that more than a million Jewish and other victims perished there.

If you want the completely objective, non-Serb, point of view, read Barry Lituchy’s seminal book on the subject. It is stomach churning, indeed.
83 000 victims are not based on documents from Jasenovac, they are estimates - and estimates range from 50 000 to 100 000. Numbers which appear to be based on documents from Jasenovac are 15 792 in Jasenovac and 2 927 in Stara Gradiška, for a total of 18 719 (individual name list, TCICOTC, 1946/1947); and maybe 49 602 for Jasenovac and 9 586 for Stara Gradiška, for a total of 59 188 (individual name list, WVCCFEC SFRJ). How the **** two works using apparently same methodology arrived at so different numbers, I have no idea; but point is that even if Ustashi did burn documents, it is still possible for total number to be below 100 000.