Antifascist resistance in France and Serbia durning World War II

Oct 2011
423
Croatia
Ok yes... but i think the problem between Serbs and Croats would be solved in the case of British landing. Many chetnik leaders were indeed ultra nationalists but at the end they would had to listen the royal governament in London. Also Croat officers were in chetnik movement in Dalmatia for example. And Croats were ministers under at least some royal governaments in London. Ustasha crimes were making the position of Croats in royal governament weaker. But if king made a compromise with Tito in 1944 under British influence surelly an agreement could be reached also between Serbs and Croats.
I'm not so sure... Yugoslavia failed in part because British had (and have) no clue about culture... Slovenia, Croatia and Herzegovina are Catholic, Bosnia and Kosovo Muslim, Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia Orthodox. Different cultures, different mentalities, and a lot of problems. British landing would have changed absolutely nothing in that situation.

Kingdom of Yugoslavia tried to solve issues by forming Banovina of Croatia. It was a good solution, but was too little, too late. That being said, maybe something could have been worked out by using that as a starting point. But by that time, a lot of baggage had already accumulated on all sides, and war only made it worse.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,552
Republika Srpska
Kingdom of Yugoslavia tried to solve issues by forming Banovina of Croatia. It was a good solution, but was too little, too late. That being said, maybe something could have been worked out by using that as a starting point. But by that time, a lot of baggage had already accumulated on all sides, and war only made it worse.
In some ways, forming Banovina Croatia made tensions worse because the Serb side felt the Croats were given too much power. Almost immediately after, Serbs in the Banovina pushed for their regions to be out of the new territory. This of course angered Croats. Yugoslavia was simply an impossible idea from the beginning.
 
Oct 2011
423
Croatia
In some ways, forming Banovina Croatia made tensions worse because the Serb side felt the Croats were given too much power. Almost immediately after, Serbs in the Banovina pushed for their regions to be out of the new territory. This of course angered Croats. Yugoslavia was simply an impossible idea from the beginning.
Yeah, I am inclined to agree. As I said, too much cultural differences.
 
May 2013
188
USA
Some writers here are from Bosnia. As i heart and read some chetniks in Bosnia at that time under NDH made agreements with the axis in 1942 first with Italians then also with Germans and ustasha.

Around 2/3 of chetniks in German part of NDH made such agreements. What about others?
Yes, many Chetnik leaders such as Drenovic, Radic from central Bosnia and Todic and Božić from Ozren and Trebava regions in Northeastern Bosnia signed treaties with NDH. Most of these were signed in May or June 1942 when the situation for Chetniks was quite dire. Some of these agreements were not worth the ink they were signed on (Ozren and Trebava Chetniks) as they were never consummated, the other ones held to an extent (Radic) and other ones became full cooperation between Chetniks and NDH (Uros Drenovic). You also had local commanders such as Branko Kovacevic in Vucijak region who constantly fought against Axis but maintained fairly friendly relations with Partisans, so much so, that ex-Yugoslav communist historiography painted him in a fairly neutral light.

One of my ancestors was a pre-war royal officer and thus became a battalion commander in Trebava Chetnik Corps. They closely cooperated with Partisans until bloody split in April 1942, then mostly fought against NDH and Partisan forces until the end of the war (Doboj, Modrica, Odzak, Gradacac, and Gracanica region). They had clashes with SS Handschar units as well while their neighboring unit, Majevica Chetniks closely cooperated with SS Handschar in fighting Partisans. Talk about complete madness when it comes to Bosnian Chetniks at the time. They were also very unhappy with officers sent by Draza Mihailovic in late 1942 and early 1943 who were supposed to centralize Chetnik command in Bosnia and to follow Mihailovic’s politics. These officers had no understanding of local situation and historical relationships between local Serbs, Croats, and Bosnian Muslims and were shunned in Trebava and Ozren Chetnik Corps, for example.
 
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Sep 2019
184
Slovenia
At that time Yugoslavia did not fail yet in fact. First outside forces like Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Turks and some others were still to strong for smaller independent states. Also NDH had to give huge parts of its territory to Italy for just quasi independence. And second capitalism would step by step lift up the people and their living standards. If this proces would not be stopped by communist revolution.
 
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Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,552
Republika Srpska
One of my ancestors was a pre-war royal officer and thus became a battalion commander in Trebava Chetnik Corps. They closely cooperated with Partisans until bloody split in April 1942, then mostly fought against NDH and Partisan forces until the end of the war (Doboj, Modrica, Odzak, Gradacac, and Gracanica region).
Oh, you're from my region? :)
 
Sep 2019
184
Slovenia
Castrum1415 thank you for your informations. I know that general Draža Mihajlović was accussed at his political trial in 1946 that all of his commanders were collaborating with axis. But i read also that just 2/3 of chetniks made agreements with NDH. So some of the remaining chetnik units fought the axis as i can see from your writting and others were just waiting in hiding for the British landing. It would be strange also from the point of view that under the Tito-Šubašič agreement many chetnik units many times together with their commanders merged with the partisans in 1944. if they would be all collaborators.
 
May 2013
188
USA
There is fact of Križni put, for example. Between Bleiburg and that, number of victims given in various estimates is anywhere between 20 000 and 600 000. Of course, latter number is as ridiculous as similar numbers for Jasenovac. Franjo Tuđman gives 35 000 to 40 000, Žerjavić 50 000, Mitja Ferenc 100 000. Vladimir Geiger gives total casualties for Croatians as 180 000 - 250 000, and total number of casualties of Bleiburg and Križni put - so not just Croatians - as 80 000.

But even that is not the sum total. Communists continued to murder political opponents until 1990.; Hawaii.edu estimates number of Tito's victims as anywhere from 585 000 to 2 183 000.

This is best I found with quick Google.
http://www.safaric-safaric.si/katas_cro/16_vuk/2006_Vujcic_Vinkovci_partizanski-i-komunisticki-zlocini-u-vinkovcima-1945.pdf
Problem is that today in Croatia we only really have neo-Communists and neo-Ustashi. So you can't really trust anyone, as far as official historians go. As for re-establishment of the camp, from what I have found these were at least in part prisoners who worked on demolishing what left of it. Of course, these were murdered after finishing the job, so...

EDIT: I am pulling most of these from my head, but IIRC there is a book about Communist camp in Jasenovac.

The only reason Chetniks and Partisans did not have death camps during the war is because they did not have their own official states supported by Nazi Germany (EDIT: Unless you count Nedić's Serbia puppet state, which also carried out mass murders). But Communists did establish multiple concentration camps immediately after the war. It is true that Ustashi had greater opportunity to murder people; but I do not find any evidence that Chetniks and Communists were inherently less evil. They were merely less able to express it.
1. I will have to read that file about Vinkovci later, thank you for the link.
2. You are correct about Krizni Put, that did take quite some time and many were killed along the way. I just do not know about trustworthy sources who could claim just what goes under that umbrella term, when it ended, and the number of victims.
3. I am sorry but that Hawaii university link is quite vague without sources for those claims. You will also notice it talks about “democide” which is something that R. J. Rummel invented. The man was strongly biased against communism and was not even a historian but a political science hack spouting utopian ideas about “democratic peace”. I have to assume that Hawaii university simply took the quote from his 1987 book without delving further into it. Thus I cannot accept this as a valid source. This thing is sure making circles around internet, though, and people are falling for it, obviously.
4. We will clearly disagree on the nature of Ustasha vs Chetnik and Partisan crimes so I will leave it be.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,552
Republika Srpska
Both the Ustaše and the Chetniks represented Croat and Serb ultra-nationalism, but the Ustaše brutality was just on another level. THEY HAD CONCENTRATION CAMPS FOR CHILDREN. The Chetniks had no such things.
 
May 2013
188
USA
Oh, you're from my region? :)
No, you are from MY region ?
Chances are, we probably know each other, after all. LOL.

Castrum1415 thank you for your informations. I know that general Draža Mihajlović was accussed at his political trial in 1946 that all of his commanders were collaborating with axis. But i read also that just 2/3 of chetniks made agreements with NDH. So some of the remaining chetnik units fought the axis as i can see from your writting and others were just waiting in hiding for the British landing. It would be strange also from the point of view that under the Tito-Šubašič agreement many chetnik units many times together with their commanders merged with the partisans in 1944. if they would be all collaborators.
You are welcome, AnonymousProfesor. I am not sure if 2/3 of Chetniks is even correct. Further east towards Drina and in Herzegovina, Chetniks were no friends to NDH, not even on the paper.

Yes, some Chetnik units were quite aggressive and maintained an excellent battle record throughout the entire war starting with liberation of Doboj in August 1941 (Todic’s Ozren Chetnik Corps and to a lesser extent already mentioned Trebava Chetnik Corps and Branko Kovacevic’s Chetniks on Vucijak), frequently beating NDH, Wehrmacht, Partisan, and Hadziefendic’s Legion units from Tuzla (made of Bosnian Muslims, most of which later made the core of future SS Handschar).

Other ones were not as effective, such as “Borja” detachment or Zenica detachment in central Bosnia, who were frequently pounced on by Partisans. Majevica and Posavina Chetniks had mixed results. Eastern Herzegovina Chetnik units were quite tough until the end, as well.