Archaeology Updates (India)

Jul 2017
510
Sydney
Got some source? Or FBI bombed the towers? What kind of theories are you putting across?
You mean a Gujarati is not an Indian? Your last sentence would need a wholesale re-writing of world history.
You better keep to Rors. ;)
How about epigraphical evidence or even archeological?

Prove Alexander's battle on Jhelum for real

That's all I'm asking for

I've read the Greek accounts used by the British to reconstruct the whole thing and they seem so filled with mythology that the very primary sources look doubtful.

I'll give you examples, they say he reached some place even Herakles failed to, the very reference to Porus (Puru, the ancient companion of Kuru etc) appears mythical

As said, till I don't see epigraphical or archeological evidence, I reject the idea that such a campaign reached present day Pakistan

Iran, I'd say yes, as we have some sort of archeological evidence as they say he destroyed Persepolis (although, even that could be the result of a local Indo-Iranian conflict)

So, prove it for real instead of relying on Greek accounts or folktales and modern writings based off those sources

@Aupmanyav - World history is not affected by this as reaching Alexandria and even Persepolis in Western Iran from Macedonia seems more plausible for those times but Indian and Pakistani history may need correction if there is zero archeological proof of this episode. We already have evidence to negate a lot of ancestral relationships the colonial era historians proposed, for instance, between Kalash and Greeks, Swatis and Greeks, most hilariously even Gujjars and Greeks

All of these can be rejected on the basis of whatever we know of these tribes from a science we don't discuss here :)
 
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Jul 2017
510
Sydney
@Aupmanyav - Could I please request you to look at the name Hydaspes and see if it corresponds to some older river name in Afghanistan or Eastern Iran?

You would be familiar with this line of query as you've often employed it on Vedic river names :)
 
May 2013
1,725
The abode of the lord of the north
I don't think we can be sure of 'Yavan' meaning Greek in Indian historical tradition

As far as the number system and geometry are concerned, we know it went India to arabs to ancient Greece and Europe

The reason I insist 'Yavan' in the most ancient Indian texts meant Arab is due to the very simple reason that they are our Asian neighbors and much more likely to interact with us compared to Greeks

Even Alexander's 'invasion' is doubtful as far as I'm concerned as the term 'Sikandar' was applied to multiple Arab or West Iranian heroes in Indian tradition

If you guys keep insisting that even the oldest references to 'Yavan' such as Mahabhatat still mean that for Greeks that would only imply Indian boundaries being not what they are today

By that last bit what I mean is that if Yavan indeed meant greeks in the most ancient Indian literature then it only means they were in our neighborhood, that is, either India was also present in the middle east or Yavan (Greeks) had still not migrated to Europe and were living in Asia (please remember we are talking of long before the Macedonians)
Yavana/Yona appears in several archaeological context. One is in Asokan edicts. King Antiochus is mentioned as a 'yona' king (Amtiyoko nama yona raja) twice in the Edicts of Asoka;
And even this conquest [preaching Buddhism] has been won by the Beloved of the Gods here and in all the borderlands, as far as six hundred yojanas (5,400-9,600 km) away, where Antiochus, king of the Yavanas [Greeks] rules, and beyond this Antiochus four kings named Ptolemy, Antigonos, Magas and Alexander rule
Thus speaks wiki ;)Antiochus II Theos - Wikipedia
Everywhere within Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi's [Ashoka's] domain, and among the people beyond the borders, the Cholas, the Pandyas, the Satiyaputras, the Keralaputras, as far as Tamraparni and where the Greek king Antiochus rules, and among the kings who are neighbors of Antiochos, everywhere has Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, made provision for two types of medical treatment: medical treatment for humans and medical treatment for animals. Wherever medical herbs suitable for humans or animals are not available, I have had them imported and grown. Wherever medical roots or fruits are not available I have had them imported and grown. Along roads I have had wells dug and trees planted for the benefit of humans and animals
Then there is Heliodorus pillar. Where an ambassador, by the name of Heliodorus calls himself a greek ambassador (Yonadatena agatena). The name 'Heliodorus' sounds more Greek than Indian or Arabic.
This Garuda column of Vasudeva (Vishnu), the god of gods, was erected here by Heliodorus, a worshiper of Vishnu, the son of Dion, and an inhabitant of Taxila, who came as Greek ambassador from the Great King Antialkidas to King Kasiputra Bhagabhadra, the Savior, then reigning prosperously in the fourteenth year of his kingship. Three important precepts when practiced lead to heaven: self-restraint, charity, conscientiousness.

Devadevasa Vā[sude]vasa Garuḍadhvaje ayaṃ
karito i[a] Heliodoreṇa bhāga-
vatena Diyasa putreṇa Takhkhasilākena
Yonadatena agatena mahārājasa
Aṃtalikitasa upa[ṃ]tā samkāsam-raño
Kāsīput[r]asa [Bh]āgabhadrasa trātārasa .......
Yona kingdom is said to be on north-western frontiers of India. We know the Indo-greeks kingdoms were situated on the north-west.
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,749
New Delhi, India
Hydaspes was River Jhelum. That is a corruption of Vitasta, the Sanskrit name, and Vyeth, the local Kashmiri name. That is where the battle with Porus (whatever the real name of the king was) took place. Porus because the king may have claimed to be a descendant of Puru clan. Cunningham in his "Ancient Geography of India" has given a very nice description of the geography of the place (the book available at Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine). He actually traversed through the tributary along which the Greek army may have traveled and he mentions the reason why Alexander's army was not seen by Porus' army. There is also a description of his fight with 'Aspasoi' (Kambojas, probably my people) and the retreat of those people to Aornus fort, the location of which is disputed.
Jhelum River - Wikipedia
 
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May 2013
1,725
The abode of the lord of the north
@Aupmanyav - Could I please request you to look at the name Hydaspes and see if it corresponds to some older river name in Afghanistan or Eastern Iran?

You would be familiar with this line of query as you've often employed it on Vedic river names :)
Hydaspes comes from vedic name of the river Jhelum 'Vitasta' . Similarly greeks named 'Vipasa' as Hyphasis.
 
May 2013
1,725
The abode of the lord of the north
Indians and Yanavas
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [ Excerpts]
Greek astronomical ideas began to enter India in the 4th century BCE , Indo-Greek influence on the Astronomical tradition is visible, with Sanskrit texts such as the Yavanajataka and Romaka Siddhanta. !
Varāhamihira goes on to state that "The Greeks, indeed, are foreigners, but with them this science is in a flourishing state."
Another Indian text, the Gargi-Samhita, also similarly compliments the Yavanas (Greeks) noting that the Yavanas though barbarians must be respected as seers for their introduction of Astronomy in India !!

Are you happy to say that the ancient Indians allegedly "Plagiarised" the scientific works of the Arabs [ Yavan]??
Plagiarism? They just gave the whole credit to the inventors by naming the branch with their name. "Yavanajataka" literally translates to Greek astronomy. "Romaka Siddhanta" is Roman tradition. I don't see how it is plagiarism when we teach greek astronomy to children saying that it is 'greek'. Plagiarism is when you take somebody else's idea and present it as yours.

I don't know the extant to which intellectual rights existed in the ancient world. But this is clearly on the decent side, by all means.
 
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May 2013
1,725
The abode of the lord of the north
How about epigraphical evidence or even archeological?

Prove Alexander's battle on Jhelum for real

That's all I'm asking for

I've read the Greek accounts used by the British to reconstruct the whole thing and they seem so filled with mythology that the very primary sources look doubtful.

I'll give you examples, they say he reached some place even Herakles failed to, the very reference to Porus (Puru, the ancient companion of Kuru etc) appears mythical

As said, till I don't see epigraphical or archeological evidence, I reject the idea that such a campaign reached present day Pakistan

Iran, I'd say yes, as we have some sort of archeological evidence as they say he destroyed Persepolis (although, even that could be the result of a local Indo-Iranian conflict)

So, prove it for real instead of relying on Greek accounts or folktales and modern writings based off those sources

@Aupmanyav - World history is not affected by this as reaching Alexandria and even Persepolis in Western Iran from Macedonia seems more plausible for those times but Indian and Pakistani history may need correction if there is zero archeological proof of this episode. We already have evidence to negate a lot of ancestral relationships the colonial era historians proposed, for instance, between Kalash and Greeks, Swatis and Greeks, most hilariously even Gujjars and Greeks

All of these can be rejected on the basis of whatever we know of these tribes from a science we don't discuss here :)
We know that Indo-greek kingdoms existed in north-western India from archaeology and epigraphy.

Menander I - Wikipedia

Various Indian and foreign sources agreeing that these Indo-greeks expanded into Indian mainland in 2nd century BCE.

Mahavamsa talks about an alexandria (Alasandra, city of yonas) from where 30,000 bhikkus reached srilanka. So we know of greek presence in the said region, which would have been impossible without the establishment of greek colonies prior to 2nd century BCE.
 
Oct 2015
1,138
India
Archaeological finds are important, but so are thefts.

This is an old report on how a Buddha statue (8th century) was stolen from a collection in Bodhgaya and reached New York. Three parties were involved and each must have known the facts.

Connivance of the office bearers of Mahant Compound (Matha) is likely as the theft (Feb 87 to Mar 89) was not reported to local police. The middleman (Friends of Asian Arts Gifts ) obviously the main driver. Metropolitan Museum, New York, purchased the statue (1990) from the middleman, according to the article, knowing about the shady way it had reached them.

Finally, the Buddha it reached back India.

Nālandā - Insatiable in Offering: From Metropolitan Museum to its Rightful Place
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,749
New Delhi, India
It is perhaps good that they bought the statue even if from middle men. It sure saved the statue. Many painting have been destroyed by being in the hands of thieves who did not know how to keep them safe.