Archaeology Updates (India)

May 2013
1,710
The abode of the lord of the north
So, you are in possession of proto-Harappan archaeological data from both the places?
Why should I be? You're the one who is differing from the mainstream idea and proposing that both punjab and gujarat domains of Harappans represented different cultures. Burden of proof is upon you.

I'm saying the two-civilizational development you said (although not necessarily Aryan-Dravidian) is more in concordance with late harappan timeline
 
Oct 2015
893
India
There is no end to discussions on identification of Rig Vedic Saraswati River. Even scientists disagree.

Scientists:

Here is a 2016 report on scientists from Wadia Institute of Himalayan Geology (WIHG), Dehradun, saying that Saraswati River originated in Shivalik Range and did flow for some distance. [1]

Here is a 2017 report on study by scientists from Imperial College (London) and IIT (Kanpur)c- both with Indian names. It says that the wide paleo-channel which is claimed to be Saraswati is actually an abandoned channel of Sutlej River. The Harappan sites claimed to be lying on Ghaggar-Hakra link were actually on the the abandoned channel of Sutlej. Further, Harappan civilization was "very adaptable" and thrived even where there was no active river. [2]

Literature:

The discussion based on literature remains controversial. What is clear based on literature is:

(i) There was a mighty river named Saraswati which flowed till the Sea. (Rig Ved Samhita)
(ii) There was a Saraswati River in Haryana in the Indus-Gangetic divide. It was sacred to Rig Vedic people and was a Goddess for them.
(iii) Origin of Saraswati & Yamuna in Himalayas were nearby - walking distance. (Mahabharat, Balaram's Pilgrimage)
(iv) In Mahabharata the Saraswati River is said flow from Himalaya till Arabian Sea. It disappeared at least one place - Vinasana. It was believed to be flowing underground at places where it disappeared. It mingled with the Arabian Sea at Prabhasa (Mahabharata, Balaram's Pilgrimage)
(v) Several smaller rivers have been named as Saraswati in Indian subcontinent. Seven are listed in Mahabharat itself. If we searching, there may be another 10-15 rivers named as Saraswati.

In Historum, there were / are several threads Saraswati River. [3]

We need to wait for more scientific data, which alone may settle the debate.

References:

[1] Scientists claim Saraswati did exist, debunk 5,000-year-old myth
[2] New study challenges existence of Saraswati river, says it was Sutlej’s old course

[3] Five threads on Saraswati

Saraswati was never an Indus Valley River (169 pages)
Vedic Sarasvati. (14 pages)
Saraswathi found again? (4 pages)
Saraswati Myth - RIP (1 page)
Why are Indologists specializing in Harappa-Saraswati less idealogical (1 page)
 
Last edited:
May 2013
1,710
The abode of the lord of the north
There is no end to discussions on identification of Rig Vedic Saraswati River. Even scientists disagree.

Scientists:

Here is a 2016 report on scientists from Wadia Institute of Himalayan Geology (WIHG), Dehradun, saying that Saraswati River originated in Shivalik Range and did flow for some distance. [1]

Here is a 2017 report on study by scientists from Imperial College (London) and IIT (Kanpur)c- both with Indian names. It says that the wide paleo-channel which is claimed to be Saraswati is actually an abandoned channel of Sutlej River. The Harappan sites claimed to be lying on Ghaggar-Hakra link were actually on the the abandoned channel of Sutlej. Further, Harappan civilization was "very adaptable" and thrived even where there was no active river. [2]

Literature:

The discussion based on literature remains controversial. What is clear based on literature is:

(i) There was a mighty river named Saraswati which flowed till the Sea. (Rig Ved Samhita)
(ii) There was a Saraswati River in Haryana in the Indus-Gangetic divide. It was sacred to Rig Vedic people and was a Goddess for them.
(iii) Origin of Saraswati & Yamuna in Himalayas were nearby - walking distance. (Mahabharat, Balaram's Pilgrimage)
(iv) In Mahabharata the Saraswati River is said flow from Himalaya till Arabian Sea. It disappeared at least one place - Vinasana. It was believed to be flowing underground at places where it disappeared. It mingled with the Arabian Sea at Prabhasa (Mahabharata, Balaram's Pilgrimage)
(v) Several smaller rivers have been named as Saraswati in Indian subcontinent. Seven are listed in Mahabharat itself. If we searching, there may be another 10-15 rivers named as Saraswati.

In Historum, there were / are several threads Saraswati River. [3]

We need to wait for more scientific data, which alone may settle the debate.

References:

[1] Scientists claim Saraswati did exist, debunk 5,000-year-old myth
[2] New study challenges existence of Saraswati river, says it was Sutlej’s old course

[3] Five threads on Saraswati

Saraswati was never an Indus Valley River (169 pages)
Vedic Sarasvati. (14 pages)
Saraswathi found again? (4 pages)
Saraswati Myth - RIP (1 page)
Why are Indologists specializing in Harappa-Saraswati less idealogical (1 page)
There was a tectonic study wasn't there, which claimed Yamuna's shift into Ganga channel lead to Saraswati's drying up?
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,412
USA
There is no end to discussions on identification of Rig Vedic Saraswati River. Even scientists disagree.

Scientists:

Here is a 2016 report on scientists from Wadia Institute of Himalayan Geology (WIHG), Dehradun, saying that Saraswati River originated in Shivalik Range and did flow for some distance. [1]

Here is a 2017 report on study by scientists from Imperial College (London) and IIT (Kanpur)c- both with Indian names. It says that the wide paleo-channel which is claimed to be Saraswati is actually an abandoned channel of Sutlej River. The Harappan sites claimed to be lying on Ghaggar-Hakra link were actually on the the abandoned channel of Sutlej. Further, Harappan civilization was "very adaptable" and thrived even where there was no active river. [2]

Literature:

The discussion based on literature remains controversial. What is clear based on literature is:

(i) There was a mighty river named Saraswati which flowed till the Sea. (Rig Ved Samhita)
(ii) There was a Saraswati River in Haryana in the Indus-Gangetic divide. It was sacred to Rig Vedic people and was a Goddess for them.
(iii) Origin of Saraswati & Yamuna in Himalayas were nearby - walking distance. (Mahabharat, Balaram's Pilgrimage)
(iv) In Mahabharata the Saraswati River is said flow from Himalaya till Arabian Sea. It disappeared at least one place - Vinasana. It was believed to be flowing underground at places where it disappeared. It mingled with the Arabian Sea at Prabhasa (Mahabharata, Balaram's Pilgrimage)
(v) Several smaller rivers have been named as Saraswati in Indian subcontinent. Seven are listed in Mahabharat itself. If we searching, there may be another 10-15 rivers named as Saraswati.

In Historum, there were / are several threads Saraswati River. [3]

We need to wait for more scientific data, which alone may settle the debate.

References:

[1] Scientists claim Saraswati did exist, debunk 5,000-year-old myth
[2] New study challenges existence of Saraswati river, says it was Sutlej’s old course

[3] Five threads on Saraswati

Saraswati was never an Indus Valley River (169 pages)
Vedic Sarasvati. (14 pages)
Saraswathi found again? (4 pages)
Saraswati Myth - RIP (1 page)
Why are Indologists specializing in Harappa-Saraswati less idealogical (1 page)
There is a TAndya BrAhmaNa account of Saraswati starting to dry up also. If we ascertain that the Harappans thrived even after the river dried, we can perhaps fix the dates of MahAbhArata and the TAndya BrAhmaNa. Obviously Rig Veda Samhita would be before that. Then we know what to do with the Aryan Migration Theory:)
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,412
USA
That's a far-fetched assumption. As I told you, just because they knew of a place doesn't mean that place was of any cultural importance to them. Mahabharata and Ramayana mentions Kerala, surely kerala wasn't an epitome of vedic civilization back then.


RigVeda mentions rivers that flow through Punjab, Rivers which do not exist beyond it. That is a geographic identity!

DId I say central Asia was vedic? In fact the very assertion I made was Vedic geography was concise. RigVeda knew of no lands beyond Indus.
Well, you missed the important point. Didn't Saraswati flow in Gujarat? Then if Punjab rivers define the geographic identity, what do we do with Saraswati that flowed through Gujarat?

Rig Veda did know about rivers beyond Indus - Rasa and Shveta being two of them. And no, I did not mean you said Central Asia was Vedic.
 
May 2013
1,710
The abode of the lord of the north
Well, you missed the important point. Didn't Saraswati flow in Gujarat? Then if Punjab rivers define the geographic identity, what do we do with Saraswati that flowed through Gujarat?

Rig Veda did know about rivers beyond Indus - Rasa and Shveta being two of them. And no, I did not mean you said Central Asia was Vedic.
Saraswati did flow in Gujarat. But the other five rivers of punjab didn't.

We know certainly Punjab province was important to them because it mostly revolves around there, with the fertile lands around those 5 rivers. But we don't know if they knew Gujarat because we don't see them describing the exclusive geography of Gujarat except for once (or twice?) where they mention Saraswati flowing into ocean.

Yes, my bad, they knew about some lands beyond indus. Just asserting their knowledge was probably not upto central afghanistan, Helmand.
 
May 2013
1,710
The abode of the lord of the north
Well, you missed the important point. Didn't Saraswati flow in Gujarat? Then if Punjab rivers define the geographic identity, what do we do with Saraswati that flowed through Gujarat?

Rig Veda did know about rivers beyond Indus - Rasa and Shveta being two of them. And no, I did not mean you said Central Asia was Vedic.
Aryans would have been present around Punjab atleast by 2000 BC imo. Take OCP for example. OCP and copper hoard culture are increasingly being attested together. OCP had certain elements believed to be of Indo-european such as usage of copper weapon, chariots etc. They weren't an entirely alien culture either. They were influenced by Harappans. Take example of the presence of a 'horned deity' on the OCP coffins excavated from Sanauli. It does reminds us of Harappan contacts.
 
Oct 2015
893
India
Reconstruction of past must include and harmonize all available evidence. The evidences are:
....

(i) Astronomical where in some hymns there seems to be memory of star positions from c. 4000 BCE.

Archaeoastronomy and Vedic chronology - Wikipedia
1998BASI...26..107S Page 107
....

(ii) Zoroastrian list of 16 Aryanam Vajehos (16 areas which are homes of Aryan), one of which was 'Sapta Sindhu'

Aryan Homeland, Airyana Vaeja, in the Avesta. Aryan lands and Zoroastrianism.
The sixteen homelands of Aryans according to zoroastrian Vendidad | Interfaith forums (surprised to find @Aupmanyav writing in 2012)
....

(iii) Attestation of Aryan Devas-Asuras in Mitanni in c. 1400 BCE in/around Syria, rule of Mitanni kings (1500-1250 BCE), Kikuli's horse training manual discovered in Hatti records

Mitanni - Wikipedia
Mitanni-Aryan - Wikipedia
Kikkuli - Wikipedia
....

(iv) Geographical data in Rig Ved Samhita.

Rigvedic rivers - Wikipedia
The Geography of the Rigveda
http://hrmars.com/admin/pics/576.pdf
....

Of course, each of the above has to be examined critically for acceptability. All the same, Main Stream Historians who ignore the above are obviously missing out big chunks of evidence.
 
May 2013
1,710
The abode of the lord of the north
Reconstruction of past must include and harmonize all available evidence. The evidences are:
....

(i) Astronomical where in some hymns there seems to be memory of star positions from c. 4000 BCE.

Archaeoastronomy and Vedic chronology - Wikipedia
1998BASI...26..107S Page 107
....

(ii) Zoroastrian list of 16 Aryanam Vajehos (16 areas which are homes of Aryan), one of which was 'Sapta Sindhu'

Aryan Homeland, Airyana Vaeja, in the Avesta. Aryan lands and Zoroastrianism.
The sixteen homelands of Aryans according to zoroastrian Vendidad | Interfaith forums (surprised to find @Aupmanyav writing in 2012)
....

(iii) Attestation of Aryan Devas-Asuras in Mitanni in c. 1400 BCE in/around Syria, rule of Mitanni kings (1500-1250 BCE), Kikuli's horse training manual discovered in Hatti records

Mitanni - Wikipedia
Mitanni-Aryan - Wikipedia
Kikkuli - Wikipedia
....

(iv) Geographical data in Rig Ved Samhita.

Rigvedic rivers - Wikipedia
The Geography of the Rigveda
http://hrmars.com/admin/pics/576.pdf
....

Of course, each of the above has to be examined critically for acceptability. All the same, Main Stream Historians who ignore the above are obviously missing out big chunks of evidence.
Sarayu is interesting. It is first used as a western tributary of Indus. Later scriptures associates the river to much further east, in kosala kingdom!