Are all Gods anthropomorphic?

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,750
Florania
The Egyptians always understood that they could never know what any of the gods really looked like or what their real names are, therefore they gave names to the gods so they knew who they were talking about, and give them magical power over the god, and form so that the attributes of a god could be seen and for the image to provide a focus for religious practice. So we can see that their gods began as invisible and unknowable beings, rather like the Hebrew god, and needed to be made visible and knowable. They did not start by looking at, for example, a lion and thinking that's a powerful and impressive looking animal so we'll worship it as a god, but by using the image of a lion to express the power of Ra via the "eye goddesses".

It could be seen like this. Christianity moved from prosaic polytheistic origins to being esoteric, but still needing imagery, and even a crucifix is imagery, to provide focus, and images of Jesus are those of an anthropomorphic god no less than Egyptian gods. The Egyptians started by having gods so esoteric they didn't even have a name let alone any imagery, and moved to a more prosaic position, but, never letting go of the fact that their gods could never be really seen or known. Here there is an element of "us and them" as regards priesthoods and the people, for the people need names and images while the priests dealt in numinous and formless clouds of "energy", and we get a glimpse of this in the Memphite creation myth.
I am impressed by your knowledge about Egyptians, and is there a reasonable, reliable source for such information?
My impression is that Christianity actively distorts historical understanding, why and how?
 

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
3,047
Crows nest
I am impressed by your knowledge about Egyptians, and is there a reasonable, reliable source for such information?
My impression is that Christianity actively distorts historical understanding, why and how?
I'm only an amateur, and not always right...

Anyway, there is no direct evidence for what I laid out in that post, it comes from looking at the totality of their religion over thousands of years. So there is no one source, no papyrus or wall inscription that can be presented as evidence as it is scattered, and for the most part has to be inferred. There is in fact a very simplistic argument to say that gods are wrapped poles with a flag. The sign for gods is precisely that, the early totems were precisely that, a pole with a representation of which god it represents sitting on top. The flagpoles on the front of the temple pylons were probably saying, "Here is god",, but there is the issue of if the poles were wrapped or not, and this wrapping of things was an important part of their culture, which mostly passes us by, for instance the images of the gods were kept wrapped, not exposed like Classical statues of gods. Mummy's don't need to be wrapped to preserve them, but it was their "thing" to keep things hidden. Amun is "The hidden One", and really it's not just him, and this is seen as them saying that we cannot know the gods as they are beyond our ability to understand, we just have to accept that they "are",sounds like the Hebrew god saying "I am what I am". So the point is that it seems that the earliest representations of the gods were very simple, just a wrapped pole with a flag and then an image, or fetish as is usually said. We identify the nomes from these symbols, and the very important but overlooked, by us, 42 judges in the Hall of Ma'at represent the 42 nomes. So very simple beginnings.

I think the simple answer to what Christianity was doing is that they needed to present themselves as something different and new. People at the time would know they were just another resurrection cult, such as that of Serapis, and would not be fooled. Julian the "apostate" knew they worshipped only a man and therefore were atheists, so the Christians had to engage in Orwellian/Marxist control of religion, of thought. That's contentious of course.....
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
The Egyptians always understood that they could never know what any of the gods really looked like or what their real names are, therefore they gave names to the gods so they knew who they were talking about, and give them magical power over the god, and form so that the attributes of a god could be seen and for the image to provide a focus for religious practice. So we can see that their gods began as invisible and unknowable beings, rather like the Hebrew god, and needed to be made visible and knowable.
What ancient text support your claims that the Egyptian gods started off as invisible and unknowable and not having any names.

The Egyptian gods of the classical times certainly had names , physical appearences with crocodile heads and such, and like Osiris had spouses and bodies and sirdd children through sex and their penis. That is nothing like the Hebrew god.

They did not start by looking at, for example, a lion and thinking that's a powerful and impressive looking animal so we'll worship it as a god, but by using the image of a lion to express the power of Ra via the "eye goddesses".
What ancient text support those claims? Without ancient writings by ancirnt people explaining what they thought, what you say is just speculation.

It could be seen like this. Christianity moved from prosaic polytheistic origins to being esoteric, but still needing imagery, and even a crucifix is imagery, to provide focus, and images of Jesus are those of an anthropomorphic god no less than Egyptian gods.
Not true. the images of Jesus is thought to portray a real person and real events, not as all the same as s the he Egyptian gods. Tell me what real person or people had crocodile heads on their bodies, or jackals? And Protestants don't use cruxifixions, a but symbolic crosses. Tell me exactly what year was Osiris born and in what real physical geographical location was Horus was born, where do I need to go to visit the birth site of Horus or ISIS? No. It is not like the he same between Chrisitianity and the Egyptian religions

The Egyptians started by having gods so esoteric they didn't even have a name let alone any imagery, and moved to a more prosaic position, but, never letting go of the fact that their gods could never be really seen or known.
What ancient document supports your claims, what is the proof? And the imagery of jackal headed gods and such disprove your claims about Egyptian gods never really could be seen. The story of Osiris and ISIS, and his body being cut up and ISIS having to substitute s penis for it, clearly shows that the Egyptians did not thing of their gods as spiritual beings like the Hebrews and Christian think of God. The Jesws and Christians state that Good is spirit and their comparison to the wind clearly show that they don't think God has a solid physical body like the Egyptians clearly thought their gods did, as their depictions and stories show. Although there might be pictures showing God the Father as an old man, Christians understand that is just a symbolic representation, and that God really does not have long white flowing beard. Some Christian groups, Puritans, Iconoclasts, have through the ages banned such inages because they feared some people of limited understanding might not understand that these images are merely symbols. What ancient textual evidence do you have that the Egyptians didn't really think that Horus didn't have a falcon head on him

Here there is an element of "us and them" as regards priesthoods and the people, for the people need names and images while the priests dealt in numinous and formless clouds of "energy", and we get a glimpse of this in the Memphite creation myth.
Again, what evidence to support what you claim. The priest worshipped gods who had definite shapes, like men's bodies with falcon heads and jackal heads, that is certainly not formless in any way. And some branches of Christianity have no separate priest or laity, while all branches of Egyptian religions had priests.
 

Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
I'm only an amateur, and not always right...

Anyway, there is no direct evidence for what I laid out in that post, it comes from looking at the totality of their religion over thousands of years.
So everything you said is a complete invention by you and had no actual basis. It reflects your personal bias, not reality.

So there is no one source, no papyrus or wall inscription that can be presented as evidence as it is scattered, and for the most part has to be inferred.
Inferred how? I have seen not the slightest scrap of real evidence to support anything you say. If anything you say had the slightest truth, there should be something to support it, comparisons of the gods to the wind, which is invisible and formless, but still very much real. Where are those comparisons. There should be movements similar to the iconoclast and Puritans seeking to ban the false images of the gods, but we see no such movements in Egyptian religions.

There is in fact a very simplistic argument to say that gods are wrapped poles with a flag. The sign for gods is precisely that, the early totems were precisely that, a pole with a representation of which god it represents sitting on top. The flagpoles on the front of the temple pylons were probably saying, "Here is god",, but there is the issue of if the poles were wrapped or not, and this wrapping of things was an important part of their culture, which mostly passes us by, for instance the imag of the gods were kept wrapped, not exposed like Classical statues of gods. Mummy's don't need to be wrapped to preserve them, but it was their "thing" to keep things hidden. Amun is "The hidden One", and really it's not just him, and this is seen as them saying that we cannot know the gods as they are beyond our ability to understand, we just have to accept that they "are",sounds like the Hebrew god saying "I am what I am".
Not at all clear what nonsense you are trying to say. If you are saying that the Ancient Egyptians did not think their images and totems were actually their gods, that does not mean the Egyptians thought of their gods the same way the Hebrews though or God. A person can know the statue of the emperor is not the emperor himself, but that does mean they don't think the emperor had a physical body. Your entire line of reasoning is invalid and crap.

So the point is that it seems that the earliest representations of the gods were very simple, just a wrapped pole with a flag and then an image, or fetish as is usually said. We identify the nomes from these symbols, and the very important but overlooked, by us, 42 judges in the Hall of Ma'at represent the 42 nomes. So very simple beginnings.
More faulty logic. Simply because the early depictions of the Egyptian gods are simplistic, does not mean they didn't think their gods had physical bodies or thought of them the same way Christians and Jews thought about their imcorporial God.

And unless we have writing telling what the totems mean, we can't say they represent any good or what the totems reallh represent. That is just guess work.

> I think the simple answer to what Christianity was doing is that they needed to present themselves as something different and new. People at the time would know they were just another resurrection cult said:
The claim of just another ressurection cult shows are made by people who don't really know what they are talking. There were no "resurrections" as such. Serspis/Osiris never returned to the land of the living after dying, i.e., he never actually came back to life and hence was never resurrected - he was re-animated, something different.

Nor did any of these so called resurrection cults have a savior who died to take away the sins of the world or reconcile men to God. Nor were any of them shown to be born and lived known, real time and place. When was Separis born, what known real historical person did he talk to, where did Serapis live on on, and where do I need to go to walk where Serapis walked. If you can't answer those questions, then Serapis is not all the same.
 

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
3,047
Crows nest
@ Bart Dale

I suggest you read Erik Hornung , who was the first to discuss the wrapped "flag poles" and what the significance of wrapping them may mean, and then follow up by reading what Christina Riggs has written on this matter far more recently. Some first hand knowledge of the work done by Jan Assmann would also help. On the matter of resurrection you may want to read what Bojana Mojsov has to say about Osiris, and also perhaps the work by Richard A. Gabriel. If you read the pertinent literature on this matter you will then discover that it is not I who have written "crap", but you, and not for the first time.
 

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
3,047
Crows nest
Tell me what real person or people had crocodile heads on their bodies, or jackals? What ancient textual evidence do you have that the Egyptians didn't really think that Horus didn't have a falcon head on him



Again, what evidence to support what you claim. The priest worshipped gods who had definite shapes, like men's bodies with falcon heads and jackal heads, that is certainly not formless in any way. And some branches of Christianity have no separate priest or laity, while all branches of Egyptian religions had priests.
This shows your total ignorance of Egyptian religion, as anybody who has any knowledge beyond the superficial level shown by you, would never write such things. In fact, even at the superficial level people should understand that the Egyptians never imagined their gods as actually being as they are depicted. Are you really that ignorant as to try and say that they did. Here's another book you need to read, "The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt" by Richard Wilkinson. Oh, and "Egyptian Religion" by Siegried Morenz, the man from whom Jan Assmann took inspiration.
 

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
3,047
Crows nest
Not true. the images of Jesus is thought to portray a real person and real events, not as all the same as s the he Egyptian gods. Tell me what real person or people had crocodile heads on their bodies, or jackals? And Protestants don't use cruxifixions, a but symbolic crosses. Tell me exactly what year was Osiris born and in what real physical geographical location was Horus was born, where do I need to go to visit the birth site of Horus or ISIS? No. It is not like the he same between Chrisitianity and the Egyptian religions
This reply bares no relationship to what I actually wrote, which was this.

It could be seen like this. Christianity moved from prosaic polytheistic origins to being esoteric, but still needing imagery, and even a crucifix is imagery, to provide focus, and images of Jesus are those of an anthropomorphic god no less than Egyptian gods.
This is about the worshippers need for an image to focus on. So while Judaism and Islam have a fully invisible god and no image of them can be made, the majority of Christians still need an image to focus on, to venerate, and in this they are no different to the polytheistic religions they supplanted. Christianity has come from polytheistic origins, the Hebrew god has polytheistic origins.

Not sure why you made a reply that so distorted what I actually wrote.....
 

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
3,047
Crows nest
What ancient text support your claims that the Egyptian gods started off as invisible and unknowable and not having any names.
Another what must be deliberate distortion of what I actually said. I did not say that in the beginning the gods did not have names. It is the real names of the gods that are hidden from us, as well as their true forms. Therefore they are unknowable in that we do not know their true names or forms. The Egyptians, like most other religious peoples, do not want to worship something that has no name or shape, so they invent both as a matter of necessity. It is no co-incidence that many of the names of gods are of natural phenomena or behaviours exhibited by animals. Not knowing the true name of the god, they give them the name of the trait that best suits them, so Sekhmet comes from the word for "power" and her lioness head shows that she is fierce. She is not a lioness god per se or even a god of lionesses, she is the power of the burning rays of Ra, the Sun.
 

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
3,047
Crows nest
Inferred how? I have seen not the slightest scrap of real evidence to support anything you say. If anything you say had the slightest truth, there should be something to support it, comparisons of the gods to the wind, which is invisible and formless, but still very much real. Where are those comparisons. There should be movements similar to the iconoclast and Puritans seeking to ban the false images of the gods, but we see no such movements in Egyptian religions.
My color change for emphasis. My reply is, Akhenaten...
 
Last edited:
Aug 2014
302
New York, USA
This is about the worshippers need for an image to focus on. So while Judaism and Islam have a fully invisible god and no image of them can be made, the majority of Christians still need an image to focus on, to venerate, and in this they are no different to the polytheistic religions they supplanted. Christianity has come from polytheistic origins, the Hebrew god has polytheistic origins.
This is why Muslims can pray in synagogues, and Jews can pray in mosques, but both Muslims and Jews cannot pray in churches. According to both Jews and Muslims the Christians are practicing idolatry, having images of God, and practicing polytheism (breaking the first commandment).
 
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