Are all Gods anthropomorphic?

Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
2,422
Crows nest
#31
The Egyptians never had a word for religion, everything was as it was. What we see looks unorganized due to their being many gods and different creation myths, but they had this knack of joining all of this together into a whole, hence the continuous practice of syncretism. Behind the many gods, whatever animal head they may or may not have, a unity can be discerned. On the esoteric level this can be said to be Ptah, and expressed in a more understandable form, for ancient Egyptians, as the Apis bull. On a level that all Egyptians could understand, and all believed in above any regional gods, was Osiris. I guess it is ironic that it was the Greek Ptolemies who combined the two into Serapis, though with a classical Greek god form to appeal to Greeks in Egypt. Ancient Egypt was a theocracy as pharaoh was the only priest, with all those who we call priests being essentially bureaucrats either deputizing for pharaoh in caring for the images of the gods in their temples, or administering the state. So it can be said that even without a name for religion, their state was the same as an organized religion, with the entire country being analogous to the Vatican with pharaoh as the Pope and all the temples simply being like side chapels in St Peter's, and the many minor gods being saints in regards the way they fitted into the ordinary Egyptians world. It isn't really like that, but it's a useful way of describing it.

About the oldest religion, well, we can never know as Man would have had thoughts we can call religious long before we invented writing or making any form of image, and religion cannot be described as an invention belonging to any group of people. However, Zoroastrianism cannot be shown to have existed before what we find in the historical record in Egypt, and some of those elements that are said to have influenced the creation of Judaism and Christianity were already pre existing in Egyptian religious thought. Judaism and it's heresy Christianity are, IMO, influenced by all the Hebrew's neighbors, though I think with Christianity more influenced by the Egyptians. All very contentious and debatable of course.
 
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Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,891
Romania
#32
Saying that somebody's wrong without giving any argument ruins the objector's reputation as a scholar.
If you disagree with me please provide a single instance where the Church teaches about a supposed incarnation of the Holy Spirit. The only hypostasis of the Holy Trinity who has ever been incarnated is the Son. Re: the Holy Spirit as a dove, I quote e.g. from this link https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine-scripture/the-symbol-of-faith/holy-spirit:

Thus, in the New Testament at the first epiphany (which means literally showing forth or manifestation) of Christ as the Messiah—his baptism by John in the Jordan—the Holy Spirit is revealed as descending and resting upon him "as a dove from heaven" (Jn 1.32; Lk 3.22, see also Mt 3.16 and Mk 1.9). It is important to note, both here and in the account of the Spirit’s coming on the Day of Pentecost, as well as in other places in the Scriptures, that the words "as" and "like" are used in order to avoid an incorrect "physical" interpretation of the events recorded where the Bible itself is literally speaking in quite a symbolical and metaphorical way.
 

Tsar

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
2,010
Serbia
#33
If you disagree with me please provide a single instance where the Church teaches about a supposed incarnation of the Holy Spirit. The only hypostasis of the Holy Trinity who has ever been incarnated is the Son. Re: the Holy Spirit as a dove, I quote e.g. from this link https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine-scripture/the-symbol-of-faith/holy-spirit:
Luke 3:22

καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει [a]ὡς περιστερὰν ἐπ’ αὐτόν, καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι· Σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.

The bolded part means "in bodily form" (=incarnated)
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,891
Romania
#34
Luke 3:22

καὶ καταβῆναι τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον σωματικῷ εἴδει [a]ὡς περιστερὰν ἐπ’ αὐτόν, καὶ φωνὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ γενέσθαι· Σὺ εἶ ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός, ἐν σοὶ εὐδόκησα.

The bolded part means "in bodily form" (=incarnated)


The text says that the Holy Spirit descended in "a bodily form/shape/appearance, as if a dove", i.e. that the Holy Spirit was manifested in the visible form of a dove, not that the Holy Spirit descended embodied/incarnated in a dove. See Strong's Greek: 1491. ????? (eidos) -- visible form, shape, appearance, kind.
 
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Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
2,422
Crows nest
#35
Is this an argument about whether a god can manifest itself in the form of an animal, for instance Zeus as an eagle, swan or bull, or if a god can inhabit an actual animal, for instance the ba of Horus inhabiting the real live sacred falcon kept at Edfu.
 

Tsar

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
2,010
Serbia
#36

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,891
Romania
#37
"σωματικῷ εἴδει" means "bodily appearance" (if you delete "εἴδει" from the link above, you get the same Google translation). You have to understand that "bodily" and "in a bodily appearance" are not the same thing, and one thing is to say that the Holy Spirit descended embodied in a dove, another to say that the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily appearance similar to a dove, i.e. in the likeness of a dove.
 
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Tsar

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
2,010
Serbia
#38
"σωματικῷ εἴδει" means "bodily appearance" (if you delete "εἴδει" from the link above, you get the same Google translation). You have to understand that "bodily" and "in a bodily appearance" are not the same thing, and one thing is to say that the Holy Spirit descended embodied in a dove, another to say that the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily appearance similar to a dove, i.e. in the likeness of a dove.
The meaning of "σωματικῷ εἴδει" is "in the form of body".

The "ὡς" can have a meaning of "με τον ίδιο τρόπο" ("in the same way") in Modern Greek. None of the evangelists say "similar", but use "ὡσ".
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,891
Romania
#39
The meaning of "σωματικῷ εἴδει" is "in the form of body".

The "ὡς" can have a meaning of "με τον ίδιο τρόπο" ("in the same way") in Modern Greek. None of the evangelists say "similar", but use "ὡσ".
Have you seen the link that I provided? Here it is again Strong's Greek: 1491. ????? (eidos) -- visible form, shape, appearance, kind. I quote:
1491 eídos (a neuter noun derived from 1492 /eídō, "to see, apprehend") – properly, the sight (i.e. of something exposed, observable), especially its outward appearance or shape (J. Thayer). 1491 (eídos) emphasizes "what is physically seen" (BAGD) before mentally or spiritually apprehended. See 1492 (eidō, oida).

Example: 1491 /eídos ("visible appearance") refers to the outward form taken on by each of the three Persons of the tri-personal God: a) the Holy Spirit in Lk 3:22: "And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove"; b) Jesus, in Lk 9:29: "And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming"; and c) the Father, in Jn 5:37: "You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form."
The meaning of "σωματικῷ εἴδει" is "in a bodily appearance/form/shape". What kind of "bodily appearance/form/shape"? A dove-like one. St. Luke means that the Holy Spirit descended in the appearance/form/shape of a body like a dove, not that the Holy Spirit descended incarnated in the body of a dove. Now it's clear?
 
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Tsar

Ad Honorem
Apr 2015
2,010
Serbia
#40
Have you seen the link that I provided? Here it is again Strong's Greek: 1491. ????? (eidos) -- visible form, shape, appearance, kind. I quote:


1491 eídos (a neuter noun derived from 1492 /eídō, "to see, apprehend") – properly, the sight (i.e. of something exposed, observable), especially its outward appearance or shape (J. Thayer). 1491 (eídos) emphasizes "what is physically seen" (BAGD) before mentally or spiritually apprehended. See 1492 (eidō, oida).

Example: 1491 /eídos ("visible appearance") refers to the outward form taken on by each of the three Persons of the tri-personal God: a) the Holy Spirit in Lk 3:22: "And the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove"; b) Jesus, in Lk 9:29: "And while He was praying, the appearance of His face became different, and His clothing became white and gleaming"; and c) the Father, in Jn 5:37: "You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form."

The meaning of "σωματικῷ εἴδει" is "in a bodily appearance/form/shape". What kind of "bodily appearance/form/shape"? A dove-like one. St. Luke means that the Holy Spirit descended in the appearance/form/shape of a body like a dove, not that the Holy Spirit descended incarnated in the body of a dove. Now it's clear?
Let's use the same source.
Strong's Greek: 4984. ????????? (sómatikos) -- of the body
So, as I said "in the form of the body"

Back to 'ὡσ'

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ὡς#Ancient_Greek
 

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