Are Palaistinian real or just a created modern word?

Aug 2014
151
New York, USA
#42
What I will say is this, look where Khazaria is and what year (compared with your theory) and look where Poland is which is by all facts the largest concentration of Ashkenazi inhabitants throughout history, its a stone throw from Khazaria.
Jews appeared in Poland relatively recently, so we have documented evidence from where and how they got there. They came from the West, mainly from German lands, after 1095 pogroms in Europe during the first crusade. They spoke Yiddish language, a mixture of High German, Hebrew, and Aramaic.
You have no proof at all to discount this leading theory, its a leading theory for a reason ............ Khazaria was the only Medieval Jewish state.
Ashkenazi Jews originating from Khazaria is not a leading theory at all. Show me at least one modern legitimate source, not written by some conspiracy hack with an agenda.
I think the historical claims from over two millennia ago are ridiculous but Israel(or the location of Israel) is based on such claims so might as well be consistent if we're going to use pre classical history to draw 20th century borders.
False. Current 21st century Israeli borders have nothing to do with pre classical history. Israeli territorial integrity and borders, as most modern states, are based on post-WW2 United Nations resolutions and subsequent 20th century wars.
 
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#43
Jews appeared in Poland relatively recently, so we have documented evidence from where and how they got there. They came from the West, mainly from German lands, after 1095 pogroms in Europe during the first crusade. They spoke Yiddish language, a mixture of High German, Hebrew, and Aramaic.
No you don't, they've been there for a thousand years and pockets of Jews have been scattered around the old Roman Empire meaning any one of their stories of travel could be used if someone was trying to hide another truth.

Ashkenazi Jews originating from Khazaria is not a leading theory at all. Show me at least one modern legitimate source, not written by some conspiracy hack with an agenda.
Yes lets not look at conspiracy but cold hard facts.

You say Ashkenazi Jews arrived in Poland from 1095 AD well Khazaria was sacked in 969 AD, by Sviatoslav I of Kiev and the Alan's who attacked the capital Atil and destroyed the Khazar state.
As you can imagine that would result in a lot of refugees, refugees we know were Jewish, less than 100 years later Jewish settlers arrive in Poland in number.

Coincidence? or a better explanation than what you offered?

Just to note there isn't one answer here, I know there were Jews all over Europe it different pockets but Poland was the largest community of Jews in the world and according to this .............

History of the Jews in Poland - Wikipedia

They started appearing in Poland from 966 AD ......... Khazaria was first attacked in 965 AD and finished off in 969 AD.
So can you see how it tallies up all too well? in fact vividly.

You also need to appreciate the delivery of these circumstances, can you not see the big picture of why if a majority of Polish Ashkenazi Jews are indeed of mixed Turkic stock how that might become a political obstacle for an ethnic group with no historical claim to Israel only via religion for Zionists?

That's not some conspiracy I've read that is my opinion on the facts of what could be a very real scenario, it just makes sense.

Ashkenazi's are different ethnically from Arab-Israelis

Khazaria was attacked and at war with Kiev and the Alans in 965 AD

Jews turn up in number to nearby Poland and Germany from 966 AD which only increases

Where did all the Jews in Khazaria go to since the sacking of Atil?

Khazaria was the only Jewish state since Judea 800 years ago.

........... this is not just coincidence, there are some real historical questions if not out and out accusations that need to be answered here before you dismiss it as "conspiracy" real history can't be so easily brushed under the carpet thankfully.
 
Aug 2014
151
New York, USA
#44
Just to note there isn't one answer here, I know there were Jews all over Europe it different pockets but Poland was the largest community of Jews in the world and according to this .............
Poland had a big thriving community of Jews because they were one of the few contries tolerant of Jews for ~500+ years. Also, the largest community of Jews did not reside in 10-11th century Poland. In fact, in medieval times all of Ashkenazi Jews accounted for only ~3% of the total Jews. The vast majority of Jews throughout history were Sephardi. Ashkenazi Jews being numerically greater is a fairy recent phenomenon due to their birth rates in the 17th-19th centuries.
History of the Jews in Poland - Wikipedia
They started appearing in Poland from 966 AD ......... Khazaria was first attacked in 965 AD and finished off in 969 AD.
So can you see how it tallies up all too well? in fact vividly.
Jews appeared in late 10th century Poland as merchants. The first waves of Jewish settlers appeared after late 1090s pogroms, and they came from territory of Germany and they spoke, and still speak, a mixture of German, Aramaic, and Hebrew known as Yiddish.

All of "Khazarian hypothesis" connect-the-dots facts remind me of 9/11 conspiracy truthers. There is no solid evidence, just a collection of disparate facts and coincidences, while blatantly omitting the most obvious.
The Khazars are simply Turkic peoples whose nobility practiced Judaism for about ~100 years before converting to Islam.
 
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Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,945
here
#45
Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry - Wikipedia

"This hypothesis has had a complex history within academia. While most contemporary scholars dismiss it, the hypothesis has often been argued in the past, and still finds occasional defenders of its plausibility."

"Genetic studies on Jews have found no substantive evidence of a Khazar origin among Ashkenazi Jews, as opposed to evidence they have mixed Near Eastern/Mediterranean and Southern European origins."
 
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#46
So as I said, I see lots of "its not that" but no answers to historical facts.

Where did the Jews who settled in Khazaria or the converted Khazar's go? they didn't go east because their enemies the Alans were east, they didn't go north because their enemies the Kievan's were north, the Byzantines were south also their enemies and also who said they converted to Islam? where is your proof of this? because I've studied the Khazar Khaganate and I've never heard of this.

Would it not be plausible that they went to "the most religious tolerant" place which was just to their West (the safest route) when just by coincidence Jews began turning up one year after the Khazar wars started?

Doesn't the timing seem more than to coincidental? are you saying "its not possible"?

Because if you are your doing nothing more than defending the stall you've set out without leaving room to admit you might be wrong.

As for the genetic studies, they are warped and they are from what pool? their pool of genetics are notoriously mixed, not to mention the sensitive but unfortunately true fact that we recently lost millions of Jewish linage and DNA information right from the heart of the location we're debating so who are these people who have been tested and where from?

How can anyone state that "I know what Jews genetics are" when everyone here has admitted there were Jews in Spain, Jews all over Europe and the Roman Empire, Khazaria, all over?
 
#47
Khazar hypothesis of Ashkenazi ancestry - Wikipedia

"This hypothesis has had a complex history within academia. While most contemporary scholars dismiss it, the hypothesis has often been argued in the past, and still finds occasional defenders of its plausibility."

"Genetic studies on Jews have found no substantive evidence of a Khazar origin among Ashkenazi Jews, as opposed to evidence they have mixed Near Eastern/Mediterranean and Southern European origins."
Yeah we can all do that one ............ especially if your deliberately being selective.

I got this from your own source.

In 2003 Behar, remarking on the high frequency haplogroup R1a1 NRYs in that former Khazar sphere of influence and noting Paul Wexler's theory of relexification, raised the possibility that the Khazar theory might offer an attractive source for an important eastern component of the Ashkenazim.[90][91] In 2008 David Goldstein asserted that the Khazar theory "now seems to me plausible, if not likely".

In 2001 Nebel et al., summarizing studies that reported a low-level European gene flow contributing to Ashkenazi paternal gene pool, suggested this influence might be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes common in Eastern Europe, or otherwise, that Ashkenazim with this component might descend from Khazars, an hypothesis the authors found "attractive".

Eran Elhaik has argued, in two separate papers, the first in 2012 and the latest (2016) co-authored by Wexler, that his genetic analysis strengthens the Khazar hypothesis. Of the 2012 study Elhaik wrote:

"Strong evidence for the Khazarian hypothesis is the clustering of European Jews with the populations that in his opinion resided on opposite ends of ancient Khazaria: Armenians, Georgians, and Azerbaijani Jews. Because Caucasus populations remained relatively isolated in the Caucasus region and because there are no records of Caucasus populations mass-migrating to Eastern and Central Europe prior to the fall of Khazaria (Balanovsky et al. 2011), these findings imply a shared origin for European Jews and Caucasus populations."[94]

.............. so yeah, I can do this all day as well.

To note, this is a politically and agenda driven debate so I don't put 100% stock into ANY of these reports, your talking about a group with a lot of money (enough to buy researchers) and a lot of influence who have a specific interest in Zionist claims which this would if true badly damage, and you guys lap this up without question?

How are we getting conflicting results I wonder?

I see these sorts of propaganda wars everyday in the media, I'm surprised you two are that gullible.
 
#48
Persian historian Ibn al-Faqîh wrote that 'all the Khazars are Jews, but they have been Judaized recently'. Ibn Fadlân, based on his Caliphal mission (921–922) to the Volga Bulğars, also reported that 'the core element of the state, the Khazars, were Judaized',[221] something underwritten by the Qaraite scholar Ya'kub Qirqisânî around 937.

by most accounts, the Rus'-Oghuz campaigns left Khazaria devastated, with perhaps many Khazarian Jews in flight.

Again, I can keep going, or you can just admit you have no evidence to dismiss these facts out of hand and admit, "It is possible".

Let me make it clear, I'm not suggesting all Polish Jews have this linage, I'm saying it seems to me groups of Khazar Jews whether from the original Turkic tribes and the migrant Jews who fled to Khazaria in the first place imo likely ended up in Poland especially if you believe Jews much further across the globe found their way there, it ridiculous to expect anyone to believe the Khazar Jews just vanished off the face of the earth when they were are only 700 miles away from Poland to begin with!!

The timing of Jewish arrival in Poland (literally 1 year apart) is just the icing on the cake.
 
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Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,945
here
#49
Yeah we can all do that one ............ especially if your deliberately being selective.

I got this from your own source.

In 2003 Behar, remarking on the high frequency haplogroup R1a1 NRYs in that former Khazar sphere of influence and noting Paul Wexler's theory of relexification, raised the possibility that the Khazar theory might offer an attractive source for an important eastern component of the Ashkenazim.[90][91] In 2008 David Goldstein asserted that the Khazar theory "now seems to me plausible, if not likely".

In 2001 Nebel et al., summarizing studies that reported a low-level European gene flow contributing to Ashkenazi paternal gene pool, suggested this influence might be reflected in the Eu 19 chromosomes common in Eastern Europe, or otherwise, that Ashkenazim with this component might descend from Khazars, an hypothesis the authors found "attractive".

Eran Elhaik has argued, in two separate papers, the first in 2012 and the latest (2016) co-authored by Wexler, that his genetic analysis strengthens the Khazar hypothesis. Of the 2012 study Elhaik wrote:

"Strong evidence for the Khazarian hypothesis is the clustering of European Jews with the populations that in his opinion resided on opposite ends of ancient Khazaria: Armenians, Georgians, and Azerbaijani Jews. Because Caucasus populations remained relatively isolated in the Caucasus region and because there are no records of Caucasus populations mass-migrating to Eastern and Central Europe prior to the fall of Khazaria (Balanovsky et al. 2011), these findings imply a shared origin for European Jews and Caucasus populations."[94]

.............. so yeah, I can do this all day as well.

To note, this is a politically and agenda driven debate so I don't put 100% stock into ANY of these reports, your talking about a group with a lot of money (enough to buy researchers) and a lot of influence who have a specific interest in Zionist claims which this would if true badly damage, and you guys lap this up without question?

How are we getting conflicting results I wonder?

I see these sorts of propaganda wars everyday in the media, I'm surprised you two are that gullible.


Persian historian Ibn al-Faqîh wrote that 'all the Khazars are Jews, but they have been Judaized recently'. Ibn Fadlân, based on his Caliphal mission (921–922) to the Volga Bulğars, also reported that 'the core element of the state, the Khazars, were Judaized',[221] something underwritten by the Qaraite scholar Ya'kub Qirqisânî around 937.

by most accounts, the Rus'-Oghuz campaigns left Khazaria devastated, with perhaps many Khazarian Jews in flight.

Again, I can keep going, or you can just admit you have no evidence to dismiss these facts out of hand and admit, "It is possible".

Let me make it clear, I'm not suggesting all Polish Jews have this linage, I'm saying it seems to me groups of Khazar Jews whether from the original Turkic tribes and the migrant Jews who fled to Khazaria in the first place imo likely ended up in Poland especially if you believe Jews much further across the globe found their way there, it ridiculous to expect anyone to believe the Khazar Jews just vanished off the face of the earth when they were are only 700 miles away!!

The timing (literally 1 year apart) is just the icing on the cake.
Wow..... to almost everything you've said.

First off, it isn't at all clear what you're suggesting. Below you lump all European Jews together and say that they are most likely descended from Khazaria. That's in conflict with, "I'm not suggesting all Polish Jews have this lineage."

there is a marked difference between an ethnic Arab-Israeli and a Jew of European stock who is most likely an Ashkenazi Jew originally of Turkic decent through the Khazar's of Khazaria.
And everything about me "lapping this up," and being "gullible," is unfounded, I never made any claims one way or the other. Yes, I posted a source, which by the way, is way more of a contribution than you've made this far, and yes I was selective to a degree but certainly not as selective as you're being. The studies you cited are the outliers, let me remind you that the wiki article says:

"most contemporary scholars dismiss it"

"While the consensus in genetic research is that the world's Jewish populations (including the Ashkenazim) share substantial genetic ancestry derived from a common Ancient Middle Eastern founder population, and that Ashkenazi Jews have no genetic ancestry attributable to Khazars,[6]at least one study authored in this period diverges from the majority view in favor of the Khazar theory."


You want me to admit I have no evidence?! That's preposterous! I've just shared evidence. You can dispute it, but you can't claim that I have no evidence.

You, again: I don't put 100% stock into ANY of these reports

This is laughable. It seems the only sources you'll consider are your own harebrained machinations and the words of some 10th century historian.


You are the one cherry picking.
 
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#50
Wow..... to almost everything you've said.

First off, it isn't at all clear what you're suggesting. Below you lump all European Jews together and say that they are most likely descended from Khazaria. That's in conflict with, "I'm not suggesting all Polish Jews have this lineage."



And everything about me "lapping this up," and being "gullible," is unfounded, I never made any claims one way or the other. Yes, I posted a source, which by the way, is way more of a contribution than you've made this far, and yes I was selective to a degree but certainly not as selective as you're being. The studies you cited are the outliers, let me remind you that the wiki article says:

"most contemporary scholars dismiss it"

"While the consensus in genetic research is that the world's Jewish populations (including the Ashkenazim) share substantial genetic ancestry derived from a common Ancient Middle Eastern founder population, and that Ashkenazi Jews have no genetic ancestry attributable to Khazars,[6]at least one study authored in this period diverges from the majority view in favor of the Khazar theory."


You want me to admit I have no evidence?! That's preposterous! I've just shared evidence. You can dispute it, but you can't claim that I have no evidence.

You, again: I don't put 100% stock into ANY of these reports

This is laughable. It seems the only sources you'll consider are your own harebrained machinations and the words of some 10th century historian.


You are the one cherry picking.
"Some 10th Century historian?" so your arrogant enough to dismiss someone who was actually there?

Wow, that is incredible and where this conversation with you in particular ends as you've proven yourself unworthy to debate ........ and if you were paying attention you would see that was three historians not one.

Your sources are more than what I have done? the sources I used are from the exact same page you did, I also provided historical dates, millage between Khazaria and Poland and actual historical events, you just selectively quoted a wiki page which was one of many views on the subject, why? because your not interested in discussing the facts or possibilities of the answer, you're only interested in defending your agenda and that's of no interest to me.

So my "harebrained" ideas are hard facts that your dismissing simply because your ego can't hack the idea that you could be wrong?

Take a break and just sit this one out, I don't want your ego to derail what's a very interesting discussion I was having with the other poster, thank you kindly.