Are Palaistinian real or just a created modern word?

Jun 2014
5,247
US
#71
In a region with so much human activity and written history, this is a difficult question. Names change for groups/tribes, as we have seen. My aunt is half Arabic. Her father was born in 1898 in Jerusalem. He was described as coming from Trans Jordan when he arrived in the U.S. after WW1. He also referred to himself, in later days as "Syrian," but never "Palestinian," although he did return to Jerusalem in the early 1950s where he later died.
 
Jan 2019
4
United States
#73
I feel you may be making a mountain out of a molehill. There is nothing wrong with the idea that many Jews, or perhaps some Jews of today might be descended from the Khazars.

Humans are one group. Humanity started with Adam and Eve and descended from this. European Jews, Arab Jews, Israeli Jews are not Jewish by race but by choice of religion. So who knows where Jews actually come from, it could be anywhere. Jews like everyone descended From Adam and Eve. But as for who are the ancestors of Jews, Christians, blacks, whites or any human of today this is up for debate. This is IMO like everyone one else providing their opinions itt.

Palestinian is an identifier of a idea, same with Israeli and American, these are ideas not rooted in history but are creations of humans.
This is simply nonsense. European Jews are and have always been Jewish by descent as well as by choice (in that they chose not to convert to Christianity and be absorbed into the European population). Whether that constitutes a "race" is subjective and irrelevant.

We DO know where the Jews came from because we have this thing called DNA evidence. We also have documented history and archaeology. All signs point to a single rather cohesive narrative: the Rhine Valley hypothesis. Jews moved to Southern Europe from the Levant during the Greco-Roman period. They then moved from Southern Europe (mostly Italy, but also elsewhere) into Central Europe in the early Middle Ages, and then to Eastern Europe between the 13th and 17th centuries, before some moved back into Central and Western Europe.

Genetically, Eastern/Central European Jews are almost identical to Italian Jews, Greek Jews, and Spanish Jews, and share 70-80% of their ancestry with North African and Syrian Jews. ALL of these populations are 80-100% a mixture of Levantine and Mediterranean populations, mostly Eastern.
 

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Jan 2019
4
United States
#74
Do your history and due diligence, there is a marked difference between an ethnic Arab-Israeli and a Jew of European stock who is most likely an Ashkenazi Jew originally of Turkic decent through the Khazar's of Khazaria.
These Jewish peoples have no linage at all to ancient Israel and Judea even if you wanted to accept their apparent perpetual ownership.

That's the equivalent of me becoming a Hindu and laying claim to the whole of India as a result.
Always funny to see brainwashed people who have little-to-no knowledge of genetics or history cite nonsensical theories. There's zero direct evidence linking Khazaria with Ashkenazi Jews. It's a 19th century theory that emerged from vague snippets of historical information that's not supported by genetics, linguistics, culture, archeaology, or written history.

Just to be clear, Khazaria was diverse and most Jews were living there long before the rulers converted. We know of extensive Jewish settlement in Crimea and the Caucasus dating back 2300 years at least, over 1000 years before there were Khazar Jews. What's more is that when the rulers did convert to Judaism, the kingdom became a refuge for Byzantine and Sassanian Jews fleeing persecution. Lastly, and most importantly, there's no direct link between the Jews of Khazaria (who were not concentrated in the western regions of the empire at its widest expanse, which is still 1000 km away from Poland, where Jews primarily lived in the western regions near Germany) and the Ashkenazi Jews of Poland.

Not only does all of the historical evidence contradict this absurd theory, but it very clearly shows a direct connection between the Central European Ashkenazi Jews, who were primarily descended from Italian Jews, and the Eastern European Ashkenazi Jews. And even the Jews who lived in Eastern European ("Knaanic Jews") before Ashkenazi Jews arrived were almost certainly Greek Jews and also had nothing to do with the Khazars.

And of course, the overwhelming genetic evidence only puts more nails into the Khazar hypothesis' coffin, which should have been buried long ago. The fact that it's so popular in the Muslim world only attests to the widespread ignorance and desperation to believe anything among anti-Zionists.
 
Jan 2019
4
United States
#75
No you don't, they've been there for a thousand years and pockets of Jews have been scattered around the old Roman Empire meaning any one of their stories of travel could be used if someone was trying to hide another truth.



Yes lets not look at conspiracy but cold hard facts.

You say Ashkenazi Jews arrived in Poland from 1095 AD well Khazaria was sacked in 969 AD, by Sviatoslav I of Kiev and the Alan's who attacked the capital Atil and destroyed the Khazar state.
As you can imagine that would result in a lot of refugees, refugees we know were Jewish, less than 100 years later Jewish settlers arrive in Poland in number.

Coincidence? or a better explanation than what you offered?

Just to note there isn't one answer here, I know there were Jews all over Europe it different pockets but Poland was the largest community of Jews in the world and according to this .............

History of the Jews in Poland - Wikipedia

They started appearing in Poland from 966 AD ......... Khazaria was first attacked in 965 AD and finished off in 969 AD.
So can you see how it tallies up all too well? in fact vividly.

You also need to appreciate the delivery of these circumstances, can you not see the big picture of why if a majority of Polish Ashkenazi Jews are indeed of mixed Turkic stock how that might become a political obstacle for an ethnic group with no historical claim to Israel only via religion for Zionists?

That's not some conspiracy I've read that is my opinion on the facts of what could be a very real scenario, it just makes sense.

Ashkenazi's are different ethnically from Arab-Israelis

Khazaria was attacked and at war with Kiev and the Alans in 965 AD

Jews turn up in number to nearby Poland and Germany from 966 AD which only increases

Where did all the Jews in Khazaria go to since the sacking of Atil?

Khazaria was the only Jewish state since Judea 800 years ago.

........... this is not just coincidence, there are some real historical questions if not out and out accusations that need to be answered here before you dismiss it as "conspiracy" real history can't be so easily brushed under the carpet thankfully.
Poland didn't become the largest community of Jews in Europe until the 16th century or later. And the vast majority were directly descended from Central European Jews. The fact that there are some coincidental date matches says literally nothing about the actual history. Let's see you present a singe piece of genetic evidence to support your theories. (Waiting for Elhaik's joke of a study...)
 

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Dec 2015
3,160
USA
#76
This is simply nonsense. European Jews are and have always been Jewish by descent as well as by choice (in that they chose not to convert to Christianity and be absorbed into the European population). Whether that constitutes a "race" is subjective and irrelevant.

We DO know where the Jews came from because we have this thing called DNA evidence. We also have documented history and archaeology. All signs point to a single rather cohesive narrative: the Rhine Valley hypothesis. Jews moved to Southern Europe from the Levant during the Greco-Roman period. They then moved from Southern Europe (mostly Italy, but also elsewhere) into Central Europe in the early Middle Ages, and then to Eastern Europe between the 13th and 17th centuries, before some moved back into Central and Western Europe.

Genetically, Eastern/Central European Jews are almost identical to Italian Jews, Greek Jews, and Spanish Jews, and share 70-80% of their ancestry with North African and Syrian Jews. ALL of these populations are 80-100% a mixture of Levantine and Mediterranean populations, mostly Eastern.
That is only an idea, how can we know the origin of humans? The best scientists have debated this. Indeed in the 1950s the greatest scientists and scholars show us that race is not real via a UN report on race. Jews are Jewish by choice of religion, that is it, not at all by so called heritage.

https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000178908

Many Jews willingly embraced Christianity seeing the love and beauty of Jesus. As through history Muslims have become Christian, Hindus have become Muslims, so many Muslims have embraced Hinduism seeing the greatness and honor of the Hindu spirit and so on and so forth.
 
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Jan 2019
4
United States
#77
That is only an idea. Indeed in 1950 the greatest scientists and scholars show us that race is not real. Jews are Jewish by choice of religion, that is it, not at all by so called heritage.

Many Jews willingly embraced Christianity seeing the love and beauty of Jesus. As through history Muslims have become Christian, Hindus have become Muslims, so many Muslims have embraced Hinduism seeing the greatness and honor of the Hindi spirit and so on and so forth.
The fact that "race" (as in completely biologically-separate groups of people) is a social construct doesn't change the fact that genetics are very real, and the science of population genetics has only really taken off over the past few decades. Yes, many Jews embraced Christianity, whether for religious reasons or (more often) for social/safety reasons. The opposite almost never happened both due to societal pressures as well as legal barriers (it was illegal for Christians to convert to Judaism in much of Europe since the rise of Christianity). In other words, the stream of conversion was in one direction.

Jews, whose ancestors had migrated into Europe from the Levant, converted to Christianity in Europe and were absorbed into the much larger European Christian population. Jews who remained Jews kept marrying Jews. Their Jewish children married Jews. Their Jewish grandchildren married Jews. And so on until the present.

The notion that each individual Jew is born as some sort of blank slate and then decides to practice Judaism is nothing short of absurd. The idea that Jews do not have religious, cultural, and ancestral (genetic) heritage is not only objectively false, it's ludicrous. There's absolutely no basis for such a claim.

Virtually all modern Jews have a common ancestral origin. This origin is in the Levant. This is an integral part of Jewish history, tradition, culture, language, and everything else. Jews moved around. This is well documented. Modern genetic science has repeatedly and consistently affirmed what was already well established through thousands of years of unbroken tradition.
 
Nov 2010
7,158
Cornwall
#78
Many Jews willingly embraced Christianity seeing the love and beauty of Jesus. .
Yes, many Jews embraced Christianity, whether for religious reasons or (more often) for social/safety reasons. The opposite almost never happened both due to societal pressures as well as legal barriers (it was illegal for Christians to convert to Judaism in much of Europe since the rise of Christianity). In other words, the stream of conversion was in one direction.
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Yes it's far easier to see that 'love and beauty' (give me strength) when you have the option to convert to Catholicism or lose your job, home, country, money and possessions and in many cases your life. And into the bargain still get persecuted and potentially burned at the stake (including pothsumously) for being a converso of less than 5 generations Catholic.

Love and Beauty indeed!
 
#79
Poland didn't become the largest community of Jews in Europe until the 16th century or later. And the vast majority were directly descended from Central European Jews. The fact that there are some coincidental date matches says literally nothing about the actual history. Let's see you present a singe piece of genetic evidence to support your theories. (Waiting for Elhaik's joke of a study...)
So a few things.

Prove categorically that no Jews from Khazaria made the short trip up to Poland when Jews arriving in that area are within 12 months of the fall of the Khazars?

As for genetic studies I've seen various accounts, some saying no, some saying yes there is a gene compatible with that area, who to believe? fact is you don't know because your not a geneticist and neither am I, you literally know no more than me on this subject because you've simply read the same things I have access too, if it were as you want to put it as "impossible" then there shouldn't be any conflicting results should there, but there are.

Lastly, if some of them didn't end up only 700 miles North West (compared to the Spain theories or Italy ect) then where exactly did these people disappear to exactly? people like yourself are quick to state no without giving any indication of where this Jewish nation's people went to (either the converts of the immigrant Jews).

Finally don't hide behind "Anti-Zionist" bs, are you telling me the European geneticists who have given their mixed verdicts all have Anti-Zionist tendencies? I could say the ones that completely discount it have "pro Zionist" tendencies.

Saying Anti-Zionist is such a cop out, this isn't an agenda driven question or party politics (depending on who's asking it and why), I'm discussing it purely on historical event grounds as a point of historical interest.

Something which are facts shouldn't be contentious, I've raised numerous points of debate and just squirming to a default "but, but, its anti-zionist" is intellectually dishonest.
 
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