Are Palaistinian real or just a created modern word?

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,162
here
#81
Saying Anti-Zionist is such a cop out, this isn't an agenda driven question or party politics (depending on who's asking it and why), I'm discussing it purely on historical event grounds as a point of historical interest.

Something which are facts shouldn't be contentious, I've raised numerous points of debate and just squirming to a default "but, but, its anti-zionist" is intellectually dishonest.

Not agenda driven? It certainly seems so at times. And how can you blame people for thinking that when you:

1. Subscribe to the Jews out of Khazaria theory.

2. Subscribe to International Jewry and Rothchilds controlling the world's banks theory.

3. Are constantly critical of Israel.

Stop playing coy
 
Likes: sbk135

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,162
here
#82
Yes it's far easier to see that 'love and beauty' (give me strength) when you have the option to convert to Catholicism or lose your job, home, country, money and possessions and in many cases your life. And into the bargain still get persecuted and potentially burned at the stake (including pothsumously) for being a converso of less than 5 generations Catholic.

Love and Beauty indeed!
This made me laugh.
 
Apr 2018
522
India
#84
While it's perfectly okay to debate on the origins of a particular tribe or using genetics to understand its history, I clearly don't understand how it supports the idea of Zionism. I mean even if it were proven that every single jew on this planet, from California to Kaifeng, have descended from one common ancestor who lived somewhere in the stretch between Jordan river and the Mediterranean, then what? How can that be a justification for the formation of a separate Jewish state without conclusively proving the Arabs/Palestinians as unrelated aliens? By extension of this crap logic shouldn't the entire human race be booted back to Africa and made to live in trees?

I think, and I am expecting a lot of flak for this, that Theodor Herzl gave a far more practical and compelling reason behind the establishment of a Jewish state. It's not 100% justifiable to everyone, and that guilt will remain as long as the state of Israel exists. Survival as a displaced and scattered nation is a bitch. Everything from Inquisition to Dreyfus Affair and Holocaust and even afterwards things like Gomulka's repressions in Poland quite clearly proved what Herzl said was right. Now the Jews solved that problem but the plight of the people of Gaza and West Bank are REAL. I am neither talking about those cowardly hypocrites of HAMAS nor Iran pumped self-righteous Hezbollah nor even the hijack specialists (of from planes to parliaments) of PLO. But if a simple schoolboy in West Bank have to take a five mile detour to go to his school which happened to be a two minutes walk before a gigantic wall came up, his plight cannot be buried under some unproveable, dumbshit genetic Jewish race theory.

Eugenics is cheesy, but these days such crap equates one with Syphilitic, homophobic, allegedly mustard burned art school throw outs. It simply proves clear lack of understanding of even basic evolutionary biology.

As to the original question, yes Palestinians are real. Although the native Arab ancestors of modern day Palestinians didn't use the term but it has it's well established place in history to be legitimately used for giving a national identity to the descendants of said Arabs.

I also root for Israel on most issues, but the notion that "Palestine simply never existed" (found on certain Pro-Israel facebook pages these days) is simply too bad for my taste.
 
Likes: sbk135
Aug 2014
224
New York, USA
#85
I think, and I am expecting a lot of flak for this, that Theodor Herzl gave a far more practical and compelling reason behind the establishment of a Jewish state. It's not 100% justifiable to everyone, and that guilt will remain as long as the state of Israel exists. Survival as a displaced and scattered nation is a bitch. Everything from Inquisition to Dreyfus Affair and Holocaust and even afterwards things like Gomulka's repressions in Poland quite clearly proved what Herzl said was right. Now the Jews solved that problem but the plight of the people of Gaza and West Bank are REAL. I am neither talking about those cowardly hypocrites of HAMAS nor Iran pumped self-righteous Hezbollah nor even the hijack specialists (of from planes to parliaments) of PLO. But if a simple schoolboy in West Bank have to take a five mile detour to go to his school which happened to be a two minutes walk before a gigantic wall came up, his plight cannot be buried under some unproveable, dumbshit genetic Jewish race theory.
Just a reminder, the post-WW2 Palestinian population transfer was not the only one and was by far the "mildest" one. Look at what happened to the ethnic Germans in Sudetenland and modern day western Poland.
The Arabs in Palestine were offered pretty generous peaceful terms in 1948, but they refused, goaded by the neighboring Arab states thinking they can solve the "Jewish problem" using the military. After their war of aggression failed, they doubled down on it by refusing to provide citizenship to Palestinian Arabs, making them permanent 'refugees'. Remember, there was no Palestinian state since Arabs rejected the UN 1948 agreement, only Transjordan was carved out of the British mandate of Palestine that eventually became a sovereign state of Jordan. There is no such present day refugee issue with Sudetenland Germans, who were treated much more harshly.

Regarding modern day problems. Palestinians would have a much better argument against the walls and the excess Israeli security if they simply stopped the terrorist attacks and recognized the state of Israel right to exist. This is a pretty darn low bar. The only time that Israelis offered Palestinians independence and democratic elections, they elected Hamas... totally undermining the notion that they can govern themselves peacefully. Palestinians haven't organized elections since either, so Israel maintains the status quo. The Palestinian Arabs in Gaza, aside from occasional IDF raids to capture specific terrorists, are completely left to their own devices, and there is no indication that their situation is improving. In fact, they are even worse than the West Bank Palestinians, who have much more inconveniences and intrusions coming from the Israelis.
 
Last edited:
Dec 2015
3,522
USA
#86
Yes it's far easier to see that 'love and beauty' (give me strength) when you have the option to convert to Catholicism or lose your job, home, country, money and possessions and in many cases your life. And into the bargain still get persecuted and potentially burned at the stake (including pothsumously) for being a converso of less than 5 generations Catholic.

Love and Beauty indeed!
To this day Christians have converted to Judaism and vs versa. Even sbk135 admits that religious conversion occurred both ways, and we would need a mass study to show us how many conversations took place legally or non legally through history.

Totally agree that Catholic history includes intolerance. You do not need to be sarcastic with me, I have np with your views and you are clearly a great historian far better compared to myself. That said There are many ways to challenge the view that Christians or Jews were bigoted against each other throughout history. A few arguments for example that The Catholic Faith today makes up the largest portion of all Christians, and a significant (1.5 billion people) portion of all humanity today. That sheer fact says something , The Faith welcomes any and all IE in Africa there are close to 200 Million Catholics. The Church welcomes anyone no matter their previous religion or what their color is. In Palestine there are Palestinian Catholics that keep up the traditions of Jesus. There is a large % of interfaith marriage between Catholics and Jews in the USA where 50% of American Jews marry into different faiths. If the Catholic Faith was so intolerant as the critics try to argue, there would not be the diversity that we do have in todays world.
 
Dec 2015
3,522
USA
#87
The fact that "race" (as in completely biologically-separate groups of people) is a social construct doesn't change the fact that genetics are very real, and the science of population genetics has only really taken off over the past few decades. Yes, many Jews embraced Christianity, whether for religious reasons or (more often) for social/safety reasons. The opposite almost never happened both due to societal pressures as well as legal barriers (it was illegal for Christians to convert to Judaism in much of Europe since the rise of Christianity). In other words, the stream of conversion was in one direction.

Jews, whose ancestors had migrated into Europe from the Levant, converted to Christianity in Europe and were absorbed into the much larger European Christian population. Jews who remained Jews kept marrying Jews. Their Jewish children married Jews. Their Jewish grandchildren married Jews. And so on until the present.

The notion that each individual Jew is born as some sort of blank slate and then decides to practice Judaism is nothing short of absurd. The idea that Jews do not have religious, cultural, and ancestral (genetic) heritage is not only objectively false, it's ludicrous. There's absolutely no basis for such a claim.

Virtually all modern Jews have a common ancestral origin. This origin is in the Levant. This is an integral part of Jewish history, tradition, culture, language, and everything else. Jews moved around. This is well documented. Modern genetic science has repeatedly and consistently affirmed what was already well established through thousands of years of unbroken tradition.
Being Jewish is indeed a religious choice my friend . One is not born Christian, Jewish, Muslim for example. They may be given their religion by the parents though. It is similar with language, as a child grows up it will speak the language that surrounds him or her no matter the child's religion or skin color.

On intermarriage, Jews and Christians have always intermarried. To this day in the USA 50% of American Jews intermarry. Sure some Christians and Jews only want their kids to marry within the faith, and that is bigotry and runs against the beauty of history.

To your point, yes many Jews hail from the middle east, but indeed there are significant numbers of Jews in Ethiopia, and yes even there are Asian Jews their Jewish ancestors going back many years. To your point about Jewish culture, one can be Israeli but being Israeli is similar to being an American or Saudi. One is Israeli, Saudi, American as a citizen, its a choice. A Jew in Israel, A Muslim in Saudi, a Christian in the USA most of them have the money and resources to go to w/e country they want even change their religion if they choose to. Diversity has always been a part of history. Jewish people are very diverse clearly shown in the USA for example. I agree we have Jewish history, Muslim history and Christian history and they represent unique values but again clearly there was interrelations between the three groups in history.
 
Jan 2019
9
United States
#88
So a few things.

Prove categorically that no Jews from Khazaria made the short trip up to Poland when Jews arriving in that area are within 12 months of the fall of the Khazars?

As for genetic studies I've seen various accounts, some saying no, some saying yes there is a gene compatible with that area, who to believe? fact is you don't know because your not a geneticist and neither am I, you literally know no more than me on this subject because you've simply read the same things I have access too, if it were as you want to put it as "impossible" then there shouldn't be any conflicting results should there, but there are.

Lastly, if some of them didn't end up only 700 miles North West (compared to the Spain theories or Italy ect) then where exactly did these people disappear to exactly? people like yourself are quick to state no without giving any indication of where this Jewish nation's people went to (either the converts of the immigrant Jews).

Finally don't hide behind "Anti-Zionist" bs, are you telling me the European geneticists who have given their mixed verdicts all have Anti-Zionist tendencies? I could say the ones that completely discount it have "pro Zionist" tendencies.

Saying Anti-Zionist is such a cop out, this isn't an agenda driven question or party politics (depending on who's asking it and why), I'm discussing it purely on historical event grounds as a point of historical interest.

Something which are facts shouldn't be contentious, I've raised numerous points of debate and just squirming to a default "but, but, its anti-zionist" is intellectually dishonest.
It doesn't matter if some Khazar Jews ended up in Poland because even if they did, the vast majority came from Central Europe. What's more is that the majority of Jews living in Khazaria (who would've been labeled as "Khazar Jews" much like Jews in America are called "American Jews") were ethnic Jews from the (Byzantine) Roman Empire and Persia.

There are no genetic studies that actually support the Khazar hypothesis. There are some (almost exclusively from a single person and his team) that try to prove it, but still fail miserably, so they end up creating insane narratives that defy all historical, linguistic, and genetic evidence. I'm not a geneticist, but I am literate and capable of critical thinking. Reading one of Elhaik's studies is like reading a conspiracy theory. And there's good reason that every expert in the field has dismissed it as nonsense. And what's more is that you can actually test all of this yourself with raw data from Ashkenazi Jews from commercial DNA tests. There are numerous forums with hundreds of people doing this.

The Khazar Jews (as in ethnic Khazar who may have converted to Judaism) were either absorbed into much, much larger pre-existing Jewish communities or, as is known in the case of the ruling class, were forcibly converted to Christianity.

I'm not sure what European geneticists you're referring to, but the main person pushing the theory from a genetic standpoint is Eran Elhaik, an Israeli non-Ashkenazi Jew living in the UK whose work and narrative are overtly political. And his studies make no sense. Just to be clear, aside from pushing a pseudo-Khazar narrative in which Ashkenazim actually originated as a "tribe" in northeast Turkey (which the Khazars never inhabited or controlled), he completely ignores the fact that his own data, that he has published, shows Ashkenazi, Italian, Greek, and North African Jews as being almost identical. So, for the Khazar hypothesis to have any credibility, you have to argue that ancient Jewish communities that have no historical or geographic connection to Khazars (and who lack the small amount of Eastern European ancestry in Ashkenazi Jew that could be potentially used to support the theory in a distorted way) are in fact also Khazars.

The reason it's contentious is because this is one of the central arguments that anti-Zionists (and anti-Semites, though the two are often one in the same) use to delegitimize Israel. It's also been used by European Christians who wanted to idealize the Israelites but hated the Jews, so they sought to dissociate the two. It also just happens to have no serious credibility and should've been long forgotten. It's a 19th century alternative theory that had no prior tradition.
 
Likes: Teslatron
Jan 2019
9
United States
#89
Being Jewish is indeed a religious choice my friend . One is not born Christian, Jewish, Muslim for example. They may be given their religion by the parents though. It is similar with language, as a child grows up it will speak the language that surrounds him or her no matter the child's religion or skin color.

On intermarriage, Jews and Christians have always intermarried. To this day in the USA 50% of American Jews intermarry. Sure some Christians and Jews only want their kids to marry within the faith, and that is bigotry and runs against the beauty of history.

To your point, yes many Jews hail from the middle east, but indeed there are significant numbers of Jews in Ethiopia, and yes even there are Asian Jews their Jewish ancestors going back many years. To your point about Jewish culture, one can be Israeli but being Israeli is similar to being an American or Saudi. One is Israeli, Saudi, American as a citizen, its a choice. A Jew in Israel, A Muslim in Saudi, a Christian in the USA most of them have the money and resources to go to w/e country they want even change their religion if they choose to. Diversity has always been a part of history. Jewish people are very diverse clearly shown in the USA for example. I agree we have Jewish history, Muslim history and Christian history and they represent unique values but again clearly there was interrelations between the three groups in history.
I said that the vast majority of conversion went in one direction. The amount that went in the other direction is so small that over the course of 1000+ years, it amount to about 5% of the modern Jews' genetic makeup. Sorry, but you clearly know nothing about Judaism. Jews are indeed born as Jews and Judaism has little to do with belief intrinsically. Yes, Jews and Christians "have always intermarried" in tiny, tiny numbers, and 99+% of these resulted in children being raised as Christians. As in, these people left Judaism.

Even today in the United States, where there's tolerance in a way that hasn't been seen since the Greco-Roman period, the vast majority of children born to mixed marriages are raised as non-Jews, and the majority marry non-Jews, and their children are raised as non-Jews, and so on. This doesn't even take into account the fact that birth rates are much, much lower as you move in this direction as well. In other words, in the long term, this type of intermarriage generally leads to a reduction of the Jewish population rather than non-Jews adding to it.

Of all the Jews in the world today, about 98% came from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. All of these Jews are very closely-related and share demonstrable common origin. The other 2%, mostly Ethiopian Jews but also a small number of Indian, Chinese, and others, are mostly descended from heavily admixed populations.

I never said Jews are not diverse. In every diaspora, over the course of thousands of years, there was some degree of mixing. But this is over many generations and usually took place in some pockets of time. This doesn't change the fact that Jews from Europe, North Africa, and the Levant share around 70-80% of the same ancestry from 2000 years ago despite living apart for thousands of years. Or Jews from the Caucasus, Iraq, and Uzbekistan sharing the vast majority of their ancestry with each other despite living far apart, speaking different languages, etc for thousands of years. And these two major groups of Jews (West and East) share significant common ancestry in the Levant despite their cores separating 2500 years ago.
 

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