Are the Phoenicians still around?

macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
3,772
Slovenia
#31
Carthaginians were in Tunisia for much longer time than Vandals in Tunisia and Visigoths in Hispania and Visigoths mixed with locals after a century or two. As well as Normans in England or Langobards in italy. It seems that more than 100 years were needed to start mixing for ethnicaly quite different conquerors and Vandals never got that time.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,104
Portugal
#32
Thinking of some ancient multi-cultural society is a bit 21st century idealistic.
I only partially agree with this, and this means that I partially disagree :)

The Barcas married foreigner woman to build political alliances, we have the myth of Queen Dido wanting to marry with a foreigner… so I think that Elites would make political intermarriages, and that their offspring would be educated as Phoenicians. Furthermore the establishment of numerous colonies by the Phoenicians would be mostly a task of sailors, pirates and traders, i.e. mostly man, as in many other overseas colonization, so the seek for women would be a necessity for those initial settlers.

So the society wouldn’t be multicultural, it would be a Phoenician cultural society, even with local adaptations, the new generations would be educated as Phoenicians, with a Phoenician cultural identity, but the necessity to make alliances, to procreate, or simply to have sex would lead those adventurers to seek often foreigner women and to have offsping that would be Phoenicians.

For instance, Gilbert and Collette Charles-Picard in their book “La vie quotidienne à Carthage au temps d'Hannibal, IIIe siècle avant Jésus- Christ / Quotidian life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal”, state “In a colonial state, the population was quite mixed, the aristocracy was proud to connect, above all, with the dominant class”, “…the Carthaginian… only gave importance to the male line offspring” and “the elite families admitted alliances with foreigners, after the 5th century, Magónifas Amilcar was married with a woman from Syracuse, and that didn’t stop him to show hostility to the Syracusians. The Barcas, Asdrubal and Hannibal married Spanish women; frequent unions were made between the Punic nobles and Libyan princess, and the example of Sofonisba, the daughter of a Carthaginian general made queen of the Numidian… proves that the exchanges were made in both ways.”… and the examples go on… (pg. 60 of the Portuguese edition).

The original book is from 1958, if I am not mistaken, so there is no new 21st ideal here.
 
Nov 2010
7,507
Cornwall
#33
I only partially agree with this, and this means that I partially disagree :)

The Barcas married foreigner woman to build political alliances, we have the myth of Queen Dido wanting to marry with a foreigner… so I think that Elites would make political intermarriages, and that their offspring would be educated as Phoenicians. Furthermore the establishment of numerous colonies by the Phoenicians would be mostly a task of sailors, pirates and traders, i.e. mostly man, as in many other overseas colonization, so the seek for women would be a necessity for those initial settlers.

So the society wouldn’t be multicultural, it would be a Phoenician cultural society, even with local adaptations, the new generations would be educated as Phoenicians, with a Phoenician cultural identity, but the necessity to make alliances, to procreate, or simply to have sex would lead those adventurers to seek often foreigner women and to have offsping that would be Phoenicians.

For instance, Gilbert and Collette Charles-Picard in their book “La vie quotidienne à Carthage au temps d'Hannibal, IIIe siècle avant Jésus- Christ / Quotidian life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal”, state “In a colonial state, the population was quite mixed, the aristocracy was proud to connect, above all, with the dominant class”, “…the Carthaginian… only gave importance to the male line offspring” and “the elite families admitted alliances with foreigners, after the 5th century, Magónifas Amilcar was married with a woman from Syracuse, and that didn’t stop him to show hostility to the Syracusians. The Barcas, Asdrubal and Hannibal married Spanish women; frequent unions were made between the Punic nobles and Libyan princess, and the example of Sofonisba, the daughter of a Carthaginian general made queen of the Numidian… proves that the exchanges were made in both ways.”… and the examples go on… (pg. 60 of the Portuguese edition).

The original book is from 1958, if I am not mistaken, so there is no new 21st ideal here.
Yes but it's the same as the Caliphs of Cordoba marrying Navarran princesses or the Omeya invaders marrying Visigothic princesses. That's all good politics but they certainly didn't mix with the riff raff by any means in any case! Which is sort of what I meant
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,112
San Antonio, Tx
#34
Carthage in Tunisia was a main Phoenician settlement area. They fought wars agains Rome. - Hannibal was Carthaginian - Rome won and Carthage was supposedly plowed under with salt.

The remnants of Carthage are located between Tunis and Sidi-Bou-Said, but the ruins tha can be seen are mostly Roman, I believe.
 
Last edited:
Oct 2013
13,784
Europix
#35
Yes but it's the same as the Caliphs of Cordoba marrying Navarran princesses or the Omeya invaders marrying Visigothic princesses. That's all good politics but they certainly didn't mix with the riff raff by any means in any case! Which is sort of what I meant
It isn't exactly what You said.

You talked about "multi-cultural society" which isn't "mixing".

Multiculturalism isn't a 21st c ideal, but a fact existing for millennias. All important cities, at cross roads of power, trade, economy were multicultural.
 
May 2017
1,201
Syria
#37
This guy thinks the Phoenicians still exist, in merged form with the Greeks and Romans of the Eastern Meditarranean - and thinks he's one of them to boot! Rather a fine specimen I'd say :cool:

Nassim Nicholas Taleb on Gad Saad's show

Taleb about "Levantines" on Medium ; ("No, Lebanese is not a dialect of arabic")
"Lebanese is not a dialect of Arabic" pretty surprising that the vocabulary of this "Lebanese" are basically Arabic words with a few corruptions and alterations. :think:

One of the more radical advocates of this belief, Said Akl, created a "Lebanese alphabet" and published a daily newspaper and a poetry book in it. And even said something along the lines of "I'd cut my right hand and not be an Arab".
 
Last edited:
#38
I only partially agree with this, and this means that I partially disagree :)

The Barcas married foreigner woman to build political alliances, we have the myth of Queen Dido wanting to marry with a foreigner… so I think that Elites would make political intermarriages, and that their offspring would be educated as Phoenicians. Furthermore the establishment of numerous colonies by the Phoenicians would be mostly a task of sailors, pirates and traders, i.e. mostly man, as in many other overseas colonization, so the seek for women would be a necessity for those initial settlers.

So the society wouldn’t be multicultural, it would be a Phoenician cultural society, even with local adaptations, the new generations would be educated as Phoenicians, with a Phoenician cultural identity, but the necessity to make alliances, to procreate, or simply to have sex would lead those adventurers to seek often foreigner women and to have offsping that would be Phoenicians.

For instance, Gilbert and Collette Charles-Picard in their book “La vie quotidienne à Carthage au temps d'Hannibal, IIIe siècle avant Jésus- Christ / Quotidian life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal”, state “In a colonial state, the population was quite mixed, the aristocracy was proud to connect, above all, with the dominant class”, “…the Carthaginian… only gave importance to the male line offspring” and “the elite families admitted alliances with foreigners, after the 5th century, Magónifas Amilcar was married with a woman from Syracuse, and that didn’t stop him to show hostility to the Syracusians. The Barcas, Asdrubal and Hannibal married Spanish women; frequent unions were made between the Punic nobles and Libyan princess, and the example of Sofonisba, the daughter of a Carthaginian general made queen of the Numidian… proves that the exchanges were made in both ways.”… and the examples go on… (pg. 60 of the Portuguese edition).

The original book is from 1958, if I am not mistaken, so there is no new 21st ideal here.
I have two more examples: 1. Hamilcar married his daughter to the Numidian prince Naravas. 2. Hippocrates and Epicydes, two officers in Hannibal's army, were half-Carthaginian, half-Syracusan.

I would add that Carthage and other Phoenician/Punic settlements were very much cultural melting pots, from the gods they worshipped, to their architecture, to their amulets, etc. This is best demonstrated in Miles, Carthage Must Be Destroyed.
 
May 2018
3
Arabia
#39
The most interesting thing about Phoenicia is that during the late roman-empire circa, especially 5th century, there are two provinces called Phoenicia. The first one is Phoenice, covers a vast land of the seaside cities, Tyre, Tripolis, etc. (what is called nowadays Lebanon), the other is Phoenice Libanesis, covers Emesa, Palmyra, Damascus, etc. (part of what is called today Syria). does this aim for a noteworthy thing?
 
Last edited:
Apr 2018
806
Upland, Sweden
#40
The most interesting thing about Phoenicia is that during the late roman-empire circa, especially 5th century, there are two provinces called Phoenicia. The first one is Phoenice, covers a vast land of the seaside cities, Tyre, Tripolis, etc. (what is called nowadays Lebanon), the other is Phoenice Libanesis, covers Emesa, Palmyra, Damascus, etc. (part of what is called today Syria). does this aim for a noteworthy thing?
Reasons of political control/ tax, probably? I think to the Romans their provincial system was mainly a way of excercising power over the Empire. They divided Greece up in numerous ways and several rounds in the late Republic/ Early Empire if I recall.
 

Similar History Discussions