Are the Phoenicians still around?

macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
3,468
Slovenia
#31
Carthaginians were in Tunisia for much longer time than Vandals in Tunisia and Visigoths in Hispania and Visigoths mixed with locals after a century or two. As well as Normans in England or Langobards in italy. It seems that more than 100 years were needed to start mixing for ethnicaly quite different conquerors and Vandals never got that time.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,330
Portugal
#32
Thinking of some ancient multi-cultural society is a bit 21st century idealistic.
I only partially agree with this, and this means that I partially disagree :)

The Barcas married foreigner woman to build political alliances, we have the myth of Queen Dido wanting to marry with a foreigner… so I think that Elites would make political intermarriages, and that their offspring would be educated as Phoenicians. Furthermore the establishment of numerous colonies by the Phoenicians would be mostly a task of sailors, pirates and traders, i.e. mostly man, as in many other overseas colonization, so the seek for women would be a necessity for those initial settlers.

So the society wouldn’t be multicultural, it would be a Phoenician cultural society, even with local adaptations, the new generations would be educated as Phoenicians, with a Phoenician cultural identity, but the necessity to make alliances, to procreate, or simply to have sex would lead those adventurers to seek often foreigner women and to have offsping that would be Phoenicians.

For instance, Gilbert and Collette Charles-Picard in their book “La vie quotidienne à Carthage au temps d'Hannibal, IIIe siècle avant Jésus- Christ / Quotidian life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal”, state “In a colonial state, the population was quite mixed, the aristocracy was proud to connect, above all, with the dominant class”, “…the Carthaginian… only gave importance to the male line offspring” and “the elite families admitted alliances with foreigners, after the 5th century, Magónifas Amilcar was married with a woman from Syracuse, and that didn’t stop him to show hostility to the Syracusians. The Barcas, Asdrubal and Hannibal married Spanish women; frequent unions were made between the Punic nobles and Libyan princess, and the example of Sofonisba, the daughter of a Carthaginian general made queen of the Numidian… proves that the exchanges were made in both ways.”… and the examples go on… (pg. 60 of the Portuguese edition).

The original book is from 1958, if I am not mistaken, so there is no new 21st ideal here.
 
Likes: macon
Nov 2010
7,170
Cornwall
#33
I only partially agree with this, and this means that I partially disagree :)

The Barcas married foreigner woman to build political alliances, we have the myth of Queen Dido wanting to marry with a foreigner… so I think that Elites would make political intermarriages, and that their offspring would be educated as Phoenicians. Furthermore the establishment of numerous colonies by the Phoenicians would be mostly a task of sailors, pirates and traders, i.e. mostly man, as in many other overseas colonization, so the seek for women would be a necessity for those initial settlers.

So the society wouldn’t be multicultural, it would be a Phoenician cultural society, even with local adaptations, the new generations would be educated as Phoenicians, with a Phoenician cultural identity, but the necessity to make alliances, to procreate, or simply to have sex would lead those adventurers to seek often foreigner women and to have offsping that would be Phoenicians.

For instance, Gilbert and Collette Charles-Picard in their book “La vie quotidienne à Carthage au temps d'Hannibal, IIIe siècle avant Jésus- Christ / Quotidian life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal”, state “In a colonial state, the population was quite mixed, the aristocracy was proud to connect, above all, with the dominant class”, “…the Carthaginian… only gave importance to the male line offspring” and “the elite families admitted alliances with foreigners, after the 5th century, Magónifas Amilcar was married with a woman from Syracuse, and that didn’t stop him to show hostility to the Syracusians. The Barcas, Asdrubal and Hannibal married Spanish women; frequent unions were made between the Punic nobles and Libyan princess, and the example of Sofonisba, the daughter of a Carthaginian general made queen of the Numidian… proves that the exchanges were made in both ways.”… and the examples go on… (pg. 60 of the Portuguese edition).

The original book is from 1958, if I am not mistaken, so there is no new 21st ideal here.
Yes but it's the same as the Caliphs of Cordoba marrying Navarran princesses or the Omeya invaders marrying Visigothic princesses. That's all good politics but they certainly didn't mix with the riff raff by any means in any case! Which is sort of what I meant
 

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