Are there any pre-Islamic statues in middle east which were spared and preserved by medieval Muslim dynasties?

Mar 2019
1,535
KL
There is something parallel, not exactly in Middle East, which I can cite. Once I listed all architectural/sculptural remains with their photos for Indian subcontinent (including Pakistan) century-wise for a research paper.

The pattern which emerged for Pakistan was surprising. First Islamic conquest in Pakistan was in 712 CE in Sindh. Complete Pakistan was conquered by Muslim kings by around 1200 CE, after which they made conquests in present-day India (there were only raids in India before c. 1200 CE).

In these 500 years from 712-1200 CE one can be sure than several Muslim monuments must have been built by the Muslim kings. However, today ruins/remains/structure of not even one monument from these 500 years are available. An exception is perhaps one rectangular platform made of stone-tiles / stones found near Thatta which Pakistan Archaeology Dept says is the first mosque which was built in c. 712 by Mohd Bin Kasim, the first conqueror of Pakistan. However, this identification is doubtful. It is not based on any archaeological evidence, just some statement as to where the mosque was said to have been built.

The point I am making is that till around 1200 CE, Islamic polity did not allow even Islamic structures of a competing Islamic sects or kings to stand.

Generalizing it, one can say that monuments lying in disuse were left untouched, but all existing/live monuments were razed in conquest. That is we find the items mentioned by @Frank81 in his post 11.


[1] First mosque in South Asia lies in ‘ruins’
lots of structures stand which are ghaznavid, the issue is not ''muslim army razing structures'', the issue is the weather and erosion problems in the sub continent especially in north india which doesnt let any brick monument stand for long time, comparatively the stones architecture of india has survived almost intact, there are several; ghaznavid tombs and shrines still standing in pakistan and gives a very good idea of the architecture from a period close to pre islamic sub continent, one such structure would be sadan shah's tomb. There are even buddhist stupas in sindh which are pre islamic and which probably survived because they are solid structures, there are also lots of unknown buildings from pre islamic era which need to be identified and conserved, i saw one video of a brick hindu temple from punjab south but was virtually unknown, there are even hindu shahi forts which are not conserved and deteriorating. As we go back far into timeline, the harder the chances of survival.

regards

regards
 
Oct 2015
1,138
India
lots of structures stand which are ghaznavid, the issue is not ''muslim army razing structures'', the issue is the weather and erosion problems in the sub continent especially in north india which doesnt let any brick monument stand for long time, comparatively the stones architecture of india has survived almost intact, there are several; ghaznavid tombs and shrines still standing in pakistan and gives a very good idea of the architecture from a period close to pre islamic sub continent, one such structure would be sadan shah's tomb. There are even buddhist stupas in sindh which are pre islamic and which probably survived because they are solid structures, there are also lots of unknown buildings from pre islamic era which need to be identified and conserved, i saw one video of a brick hindu temple from punjab south but was virtually unknown, there are even hindu shahi forts which are not conserved and deteriorating. As we go back far into timeline, the harder the chances of survival.

regards

regards
Hi Ashoka,

This tomb you are referring to is probably of Shah Rukn-e-alam. It was built between 1320-1324 CE by Sultan Ghiyath Tuglak of Delhi. [1]

My statement was precise and covered period from 712 to 1200 CE and is about Muslim monuments in Pakistan:

"In these 500 years from 712-1200 CE one can be sure than several Muslim monuments must have been built by the Muslim kings. However, today ruins/remains/structure of not even one monument from these 500 years are available. "

If there are links to any details on decent monuments kindly do share. I will update / improve my conclusion. Today almost every detail is available somewhere on the internet.

It seems to me that terms like "Ghaznavid" and prior to that "Umayyad Caliphate" appear to be notional labels given by some historians to show that big well-connected empires existed. The fact on ground is that small kingdoms existed of which hardly any history - archaeological or textual - is available till 1200 CE.

Regards

[1] Tomb of Shah Rukn-e-Alam - Wikipedia
 
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
Hi Ashoka,

This tomb you are referring to is probably of Shah Rukn-e-alam. It was built between 1320-1324 CE by Sultan Ghiyath Tuglak of Delhi. [1]

My statement was precise and covered period from 712 to 1200 CE and is about Muslim monuments in Pakistan:

"In these 500 years from 712-1200 CE one can be sure than several Muslim monuments must have been built by the Muslim kings. However, today ruins/remains/structure of not even one monument from these 500 years are available. "

If there are links to any details on decent monuments kindly do share. I will update / improve my conclusion. Today almost every detail is available somewhere on the internet.

It seems to me that terms like "Ghaznavid" and prior to that "Umayyad Caliphate" appear to be notional labels given by some historians to show that big well-connected empires existed. The fact on ground is that small kingdoms existed of which hardly any history - archaeological or textual - is available till 1200 CE.

Regards

[1] Tomb of Shah Rukn-e-Alam - Wikipedia
come on man why cant you just use google?

1553370331814.png

Category:Tomb of Sheikh Sadan Shaheed, Musaffargarh - Wikimedia Commons

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4629582

1553370526619.png

sindh buddhist stupa

Buddhist stupa near Dadu, Sindh
 
Oct 2015
1,138
India
On trying make small things look big, here is a simple history of Ghaznavid Empire:

Sabuktigin is said to be the "founder" though he was not an independent sovereign king. He ruled the city of Ghazni (Afghanistan) & surrounding areas. He was under Samanid Empire based in Bukhara (Uzbekistan).

1. Mahmud of Ghazni (ruled 998-1030), son of Sabuktigin, declared independence. He was the first king who managed to get the title of "Sultan" from the Abbasid Caliphate based in Baghdad (Iraq). Mahmud expanded territories under his kingdom to an extent that he could be called an emperor. At its peak, territories included parts of Iran & Pakistan. He did not have a permanent governor in present-day India but some kings had agreed to pay him tribute.

He is famous for having made 17 military raid in to India and loot temples and defeat some kings. He is called a protector of Arts because two famous persons - Firdausi and Al-beruni - were members of his court. The fact is that both were very unhappy with Mahmud the reference to which is available in their literature itself.

3. Period from 1030 to 1059 CE: In these topsy-turvy three decades the empire had eight kings/emperors, continuous conflict / wars, and lost territories in Iran.

4. Ibrahim (r. 1059-1099 )

5. Masud-3 and two others (r. 1099-1117 )

6. Bahram Shah (r. 1117-1157 ): He was the last to rule Ghazni as an independent king from the dynasty. He was defeated & ousted from Ghanzi by king of Ghor (Afghanistan). They burned Ghazni which fire lasted for 7 days (1150 CE). It was restored to him by intervention of Sekjuk Empire and he became a tributary of that empire.

7. Khusrau-Shah (1157-1160):

8. Khusrau Malik (1160-1186): He was defeated by Orguz Turks and fled from Ghazni to Lahore in 1163. The capital of the so-called "Ghaznavid Empire" was formally moved to Lahore (Pakistan). It was not an empire but a tributary of Seljuks. In 1186, Lahore was captured. He was defeated by Ghorids and taken as prisoner to Ghor (Afghanistan).

Effectively the kingdom lasted as sovereign state for 152 years from 998 to 1150. One can give it the status of an empire for about 100 years from 999 CE (conquest of Samanids) to 1099 CE (end of Ibrahim's long reign). Empire was created by brave warrior-king Mahmud of Ghanzi. Mahmud was impressed with the beauty of & grandeur of Mathura city (which he destroyed) and Kannuaj city in India as per his letters. He did build good build monuments in Ghanzni but these were destroyed.
 
Oct 2015
1,138
India
come on man why cant you just use google?


Category:Tomb of Sheikh Sadan Shaheed, Musaffargarh - Wikimedia Commons

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4629582

sindh buddhist stupa

Buddhist stupa near Dadu, Sindh
Good the picture of the first is posted.

The first pic is of a tomb constructed after 1200 CE. It was built by Tuglaks or Khiljis of Delhi. Here is a ground report from Pakistan: Ali Usman Baig : The Brick Tomb of Sheikh Sadan Shaheed

The article is JSTOR talks of a "suggestion" that it was built by Ghurids: "to support the suggestion that this was a funerary monument built for a Ghūrid patron in the late twelfth century and discusses the tomb in relation to other extant Ghūrid structures in South Asia." There is no inscription or known details of the 'Shaheed'. Simple fact the there is continuity in style does not establish it was built by Ghurids.

In Pakistan even today we find bullock cart on the exact pattern of Harappan civilization. And even toilets! When could these have been built? And even if we agree that it is Ghurid, then just an isolated case in 500 years of rule.
 
Mar 2019
1,535
KL
Good the picture of the first is posted.

The first pic is of a tomb constructed after 1200 CE. It was built by Tuglaks or Khiljis of Delhi. Here is a ground report from Pakistan: Ali Usman Baig : The Brick Tomb of Sheikh Sadan Shaheed

The article is JSTOR talks of a "suggestion" that it was built by Ghurids: "to support the suggestion that this was a funerary monument built for a Ghūrid patron in the late twelfth century and discusses the tomb in relation to other extant Ghūrid structures in South Asia." There is no inscription or known details of the 'Shaheed'. Simple fact the there is continuity in style does not establish it was built by Ghurids.

In Pakistan even today we find bullock cart on the exact pattern of Harappan civilization. And even toilets! When could these have been built?

And even if we agree that it is Ghurid, then just an isolated case.
and buddhist stupa was also built by the ghaurids?

your article itself mentions eighth century tomb, how about that?

The tomb of Muhammad Harun, an Arab governor of Makran in the early years of the 8th century A.D, is regarded to be the earliest Muslim tomb in Pakistan. This brick structure is square in plan and the square chamber is directly covered by a low dome. The second specimen in the series is the so-called tomb of Khalid Walid at the village of Khattichaur near Kabirwala.
 

Dreamhunter

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
7,482
Malaysia
Early Muslims left pyramids & the sphinx completely intact, when it was well within their power to have demolished it totally. I guess that says something.
 

antocya

Ad Honorem
May 2012
5,778
Iraq
I went to Mount Nemrut a few years ago but the first thing that came to my mind was the Sphinx.

But those statues on Mount Nemrut take awhile to get to even today and many of the pre-Islamic sites were not excavated until the 19th century or later.

Would be interesting to hear about prominent statues that were known for a really long time other than in Egypt and the Bamiyan Buddhas.

I’ve seen a couple bas-reliefs on the side of cliffs from ancient times in Iraq, one was actually pretty large, an Assyrian one. However, this place is not well known at all even today.
 
Sep 2014
941
Texas
The effect of propaganda in West is evident. Google Mount Nemrut.
All the West has to do is show the photos.

I do think though that areas that still have indigenious people like Iran, there is a desire to save and honor their past. I do not imagine the Iranians see any value in destroying their own history. People with no connection to the prior people have no trouble destroying it.