Astronomical observations recorded in Vedic Literature & their Date

May 2013
1,614
The abode of the lord of the north
That proves that the 'nakshatra' observing was the older method since it was easier. We changed to 'rashi' (Zodiac) system only around 2,000 BCE. Taittirya Sanhita written at that time mentions the Zodiac system.

Quote from Tilak (Orion): "We shall assume that the zodiac was divided into 27 parts, not by compass but, by means of the leading stars, which. Prof. Max Muller rightly calls the milestones of the heavens. The Vedic priest who ascertained the motion of the sun with his unaided eye the nearest visible star, by observing cannot be supposed to have followed a different method in The Vedic priest, who ascertqined the motion of sunby observing with his unaided eye the nearest visible star, cannot be supposed to have followed a different method in making other celestial observations; and, if so, we cannot assume that he was capable of recognizing and using for the purposes of observation any artificial divisions of the ecliptic on a mathematical principle, such as those which would result from the division of 360 degree of the zodiac into 27 equal parts, each part thus extending over 13.20 degrees of the ecliptic. Of course, such an artificial method might be easily followed in later days, when the means of observation increased and the science of arithmetic was developed. But in the earliest days of civilization, it is more natural to suppose that the motions of the sun and the moon were determined by observing which if the known fixed stars was nearest to them."
Just when do you date the arrival of Aryans from arctic according to your opininon?!

Do try to link us to taiitiriya samhita that mentions 12 Zodiac system
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,990
New Delhi, India
I date it to between 2,000 to 1,500 BCE; i.e., sometime around BMAC and Yaz Depe cultures.

"The etymology of the word ritvij (ritu+yaj=season sacrificer) shows that even in the oldest days there existed a certain correspondence between the sacrifices and the seasons, and what is true of the seasons is true of the year which according to one derivation of samvatsara (vas to dwell ) is nothing but a period where seasons dwell, or a cycle of seasons. The priests were not only the sacrificers of the community, but were also its time-keepers, and these two functions they appear to have blended into one by assigning the commencement of the several sacrifices to the leading days of the year, on the natural that if the sacrifices were to be performed they must be performed on the principal days of the year."

"Now a month of thirty civil (or savana) days cannot correspond with a lunar synodical month, and the Brahmavadins had therefore to omit a day in some of the s'avana' months to secure the concurrence of the civil and the lunar months."
"Utsrijya notsrijyamiti mimansate Brahmavadinah l" Taittiriy Samhita vii.5.7.1 and Tandya Brahamana v.10. See also 'Kala-Madhav' chapter on month, Kolkata Edition, page 63."
(Tilak - "Orion or Researches on Antiquity of Vedas).
 
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May 2013
1,614
The abode of the lord of the north
I date it to between 2,000 to 1,500 BCE; i.e., sometime around BMAC and Yaz Depe cultures.
But you just said Taittiriya Samhita which has a solar zodiac tradition is of 2000 BCE and also agreed that the lunar tradition prevalent in the vedas are even older! Do you think Vedas were written before they entired Indian subcontinent?!
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,990
New Delhi, India
"We must therefore take great care not to allow the idea of Uttrayana, as we understand it now, to obscure our visionin interpreting the early Vedic traditions, and that too much care can never be taken is evident from the fact that even so acute an astronomer as Bhaskaracharya was at a loss to correctly understand, the tradition that the Uttrayana was the day of the Devas? He admits that the celestial being on Meru at the North Pole behold the sun (during all the six months) when the sun is in northern hemisphere (vii.9) and these six months may therefore be properly called their days. But the word Uttarayana was then used to denote the period of six months from the winter to the summer solstice; and Bhaskracharya was unable to understand how such an Uttarayana could be called the day of the Devas by the writers of astronomical Samhitas."

So it seems that Uttarayana at one time was a synonym of Devayana, but its meaning changed later. The same for Dakshinayana.

Bhaskarcharya.png
 
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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,990
New Delhi, India
But you just said Taittiriya Samhita which has a solar zodiac tradition is of 2000 BCE and also agreed that the lunar tradition prevalent in the vedas are even older! Do you think Vedas were written before they entired Indian subcontinent?!
Yes. Taittiriya Samhita was written sometime earlier than 2,000 BCE. At that time, Aryans were in Central Asia (Turkmenistan/Afghanistan - Sogdiana, Merv, Balkh, Bala Murghab (Maimana), Herat).The 'Nakshatra - Rashi system' was older than that, perhaps in Yamnaya/Volga region. Between 4,000 and 2,000 BCE. Yes, part of Vedas were written outside India.
I find the presence of Rashi system in Rishi Jaimini's work. He's a contemporary of Vyasa and Parashara. So, I'll certainly place him in 1900 BC or older
On what evidence you can date Jaimini, Vyasa or Parashara or say that one was contemporary of the other? Puranas mostly cannot be taken as evidence.
 
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Jul 2017
510
Sydney
Yes. Taittiriya Samhita was written sometime earlier than 2,000 BCE. At that time, Aryans were in Central Asia (Turkmenistan/Afghanistan - Sogdiana, Merv, Balkh, Bala Murghab (Maimana), Herat).The 'Nakshatra - Rashi system' was older than that, perhaps in Yamnaya/Volga region. Between 4,000 and 2,000 BCE. Yes, part of Vedas were written outside India.

On what evidence you can date Jaimini, Vyasa or Parashara or say that one was contemporary of the other? Puranas mostly cannot be taken as evidence.
What is the evidence for you to make an arbitrary claim placing Taittiriya Samhita in Central Asia?

Here is Witzel's map for the locations of different Ved Shakhas

As everyone will be able to see, Taittiriya is deep inside India, east of Yamuna

Etymology of Taittiriya is from 'Titar', a common bird in Haryana and western UP

I don't think there are any Titars in central Asia. Here, "Teetar or the grey francolin is a species of francolin found in the plains and drier parts of the Indian subcontinent" (from wiki)
 

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Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,990
New Delhi, India
1. What is the evidence for you to make an arbitrary claim placing Taittiriya Samhita in Central Asia?
2. Here is Witzel's map for the locations of different Ved Shakhas. As everyone will be able to see, Taittiriya is deep inside India, east of Yamuna
3. I don't think there are any Titars in central Asia. Here, ..
3. "Partridges are medium-sized non-migratory gamebirds, with a wide native distribution throughout the Old World, including Europe, Asia, and parts of Africa." - Wikipedia
2. What Witzel says is his opinion. Moreover, he is talking about Vedic India and not about Aryan migration. That would be the picture around 1,000-500 BCE. Yes, by that time, Aryan brahmins had moved to Indo-Gangetic plain.
1. If Taittiriya is around the time Aryan New Year started with Krittika, it would be sometime around 2,000 BCE. Yaz Depe culture is around 1,500 BCE. That means that Aryans had not yet arrived in India. Therefore, I place Taittiriya Samhita in Central Asia. I am following general AMT or Tilak's line.
 
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Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,351
USA
Yes. Taittiriya Samhita was written sometime earlier than 2,000 BCE. At that time, Aryans were in Central Asia (Turkmenistan/Afghanistan - Sogdiana, Merv, Balkh, Bala Murghab (Maimana), Herat).The 'Nakshatra - Rashi system' was older than that, perhaps in Yamnaya/Volga region. Between 4,000 and 2,000 BCE. Yes, part of Vedas were written outside India.On what evidence you can date Jaimini, Vyasa or Parashara or say that one was contemporary of the other? Puranas mostly cannot be taken as evidence.
Yes but Aupamanyav's words can be taken as absolute evidence. Keep them coming, these are real gems!
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,351
USA
"We must therefore take great care not to allow the idea of Uttrayana, as we understand it now, to obscure our visionin interpreting the early Vedic traditions, and that too much care can never be taken is evident from the fact that even so acute an astronomer as Bhaskaracharya was at a loss to correctly understand, the tradition that the Uttrayana was the day of the Devas? He admits that the celestial being on Meru at the North Pole behold the sun (during all the six months) when the sun is in northern hemisphere (vii.9) and these six months may therefore be properly called their days. But the word Uttarayana was then used to denote the period of six months from the winter to the summer solstice; and Bhaskracharya was unable to understand how such an Uttarayana could be called the day of the Devas by the writers of astronomical Samhitas."

So it seems that Uttarayana at one time was a synonym of Devayana, but its meaning changed later. The same for Dakshinayana.

View attachment 15013
There is absolutely no astronomical meaning for either DevayAna or PitryAna in Rig Veda, just so you know.
 

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