Atlantis

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,980
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#31
it is mostly senseless to quibble over texts without archaeology and other modern science. i do have to mention that pindars olympian 3 not being included in any discussion [scholarly or otherwise past or present] on atlantis or the pillars of heracles seems very strange to me. its been around and translated in the west since 1438. it seems to be the first ever mention we have [476bc however that was arrived at].

the first tomb texts [of unas] say to get to this paradise you should get in a boat in egypt and sail towards the northstar as long as you can. there you will find a dangerous river that leads to the great lake of paradise which is where the circles are.

to make this more modern we could look for the material culture from early egyptian civilization circa 4000bc showing up in "atlantis" in 4500bc. is that something that should be true? proof the story could have travelled through say pots and idols? is it better than quibbling over texts? at least there could be pictures.
The texts of the pyramids in the one of Unas can be checked. It's not about quibbling ... if you tell me that someone sustains that in the pyramid texts you can read that ...
to get to this paradise you should get in a boat in egypt and sail towards the northstar as long as you can. there you will find a dangerous river that leads to the great lake of paradise which is where the circles are.
I can check such a translation and, as for I remember, it's not exactly what the texts say. But now I'm going to look for that passage.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,980
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#32
In the texts of the pyramids [which I know a bit] the utterance 262 [334, 335, 336] presents Unas on a ferryboat [a great ferryboat], passing through a dangerous lake. The Horo is following the stars of Sehedu [Sehedu was a star for sure, also Radjedef's pyramid had the nickname of "Star Sehedu" ... so we can think to a group of stars identified because of the presence of Sehedu among them]. The following paragraph adds that Unas has reached the Heaven, rowing in a "night barge".

[my note: probably after leaving the great ferryboat].

The a morning barge appears. And a People of Light is there when Unas ascends.

Utterance 268 [374] presents an other moment of the travel of Unas and here we see the polar stars [the Egyptians defined them stars which didn't set, in the sense that they were always visible, for all the year]. Leading towards those stars he passes through the fields of reeds.

Now ... for who cannot read hieroglyphics, here there is an English translation of the pyramid texts. Pyramid Texts Online - English Translation

May be I'm mindless, my fault, but I don't see the circles [as we could expect in case of Atlantis].

There are several entities which are encircled [Unas himself, for example [like Orion and Sothis], but after the dangerous lake there isn't a circular city.
 
Likes: Yôḥānān
Aug 2018
24
Canada
#33
a thousand years of quibbling over texts achieved what? it all seems pretty silly when pindar has never been included. scholars say pindars works appear 11 times in plato. i think maybe 12 times.

the circles in the seti texts are in the same place unas is sailing to. you don't think seti and unas are going to a different duat do you? if one man says there are circles in the duat then cannot we assume they exist in another mans duat if it is the same duat. unas describes the journey ie how to get there.

“Praise be to thee O Ra, exalted Sekhem, Lord of the hidden circles of the Duat…

“Praise be to thee, O Ra… and thou makest thy creations as Governor of thy circle.

“Praise be to thee, O Ra… Thou art he who gathereth together thy gods when thou goest into thy hidden circle.

“Praise be to thee, O Ra… the sender of light into his circle… thou art he who makest the darkness to be in his circle, and thou coverest those who are therein.

“Praise be to thee, O Ra… the illuminator of bodies in the horizens… thou art he who entereth into his circle.

“Praise be to thee, O Ra… thou goest in and comest out and thou comest out and goest in to thy hidden circle…

“Praise be to thee, O Ra_lord of the hidden circles_


“These are they who are in the Land of Serser; ‘they have received their bread, and they have gained the mastery over this Lake, and they praise this great god. Ra saith unto them:–’Eat ye your green herbs, and satisfy ye yourselves with your cakes; let there be fulness to your bellies, and satisfaction to your hearts. Your green herbs are of the Lake of Serser, the Lake which may not be approached. Praise ye me, glorify ye me, for I am the Great One of terror of the Tuat.’ They say unto Ra:–’Hail to thee, O thou Great One of the SEKHEMU (i.e., Powers)! Praise is thine, and majesty is thine. The Tuat is thine, and [is subservient] to thy will; it is a hidden place [made] by thee for those who are in its Circles. The height of Heaven is thine, and [is subservient] to thy will; it is a secret place [made] by thee for those who belong thereto. The Earth is for thy dead Body, and the Sky is for thy Soul. O Ra, be thou at peace (or, be content) with that which thou hast made to come into being.’ Their food consisteth of bread-cakes, their green herbs are the plants of the spring, and the waters wherein they refresh themselves are cool”

“These are they who make souls to have a right to the green herbs in the Lake of Serser. Ra saith unto them:–’[Hail, ye] divine sovereign princes of the gods, and ye chiefs of the Lake of Serser, who place souls over their green herbs, let them have dominion themselves over their bread; give ye your bread which is appointed, and bring ye your green herbs to the souls who have been ordered to exist in the Lake of Serser.’ They say unto Ra:–’The bread appointed hath been and the green herbs have been brought to the divine souls whom thou hast ordered to exist in the Lake of Serser. Hail! Verily, the way is fair; for KHENTI-AMENTI praiseth thee, and those who dwell in TA-THENEN praise thee.’ Their food is of bread-cakes, and their beer is the tchesert beer, and their libations are of cool water; and offerings are made unto them upon earth by those who are with TUI by the divine sovereign princes.”

“Hail to thee, O thou Thigh which dwelleth in the northern heaven in the Great Lake, which art seen and which dieth not. I have stood up over thee when thou didst rise like a god. I have seen thee, and I have not lain down in death; I have stood over thee, and I have risen like a god. I have cackled like a goose, and I have alighted like a hawk by the divine clouds and by the great dew. I have journeyed from the earth to heaven. The god Shu–made–me to stand up, the god of Light hath made me to be vigorous by the two sides of the ladder, and the stars which never rest set–me–on–my–way and bring–me–away from slaughter. I bring along with me the things which drive back calamities as I advance over the passage of the god Pen; thou comest, how great art thou, O god Pen! I have come from the Pool of Flame which is in the Sekhet-Sasa–i.e., the Field of Fire.–Thou livest in the Pool of Flame in Sekhet-Sasa, and I live upon the staff of the hold–god. Hail, thou god Kaa, who dost bring those things which are in the boats by the . . . I stand up in the boat and I guide myself–over–the water: I have stood up in the boat and the god hath guided me. I have stood up. I have spoken.–I am master of the–crops. I sail round about as I go forward, and the gates which are in Sekhem–Letopolis–are opened unto me, and fields are awarded unto me in the city of Unni–Hermopolis–, and laborers (?) are given unto me together with those of my own flesh and bone.”

faulkner translates the last bit as
“Hail to you, you plateau which is in the sky north of the Great Waterway, for whoever sees it will not die. I stand upon you, I appear as a god, I have seen you and I will not die. I stand upon you, I appear as a god, I cackle as a goose, I fly up thence as the falcon upon the branches. O Dew of the Great One, I cross the earth towards the sky, I stand up as Shu, I make the sunshine to flourish on the sides of the ladder which is made to mount up to the Unwearying Stars, far from decapitation. Bring me those who repel evil when I have passed you by at the polar region of Tepen. ‘Where have you come from?’ ‘O Tepen, I have come from the Lake of Burning in the Field of Fire.’ ‘What did vou live on in the Lake of Burning in the Field of Fire?’ ‘I lived on that noble tree of Ikaa who brought these boats from the Dried-up Lake for me. The water-jar was on … that I might stand in the Sacred Bark and guide the waters; that I might stand in the Sacred Bark and conduct the god;that I might stand up, mv staff being a rod.’ ‘ Go aboard and sail.’ The gates are opened for me in Letopolis,the earth is split open for me in Wenu, and the staffs have been given to me in respect of my inheritance.”

he cannot explain what tepen is. alford says god pen.. of course at gades was geryons [posiedons grandson] pen which survived the destruction of atlantis. this would be the same as the persian vara of yima surviving the flood of his circles.



lets see some artifacts
from the british museum
"What is the significance of the disjunction between the Middle Neolithic and Late Neolithic assemblages at Nabta Playa and the emergence of Black-topped pottery? The transformation in pottery production reflects important shifts in technology and changes in pottery use that are part of a larger system of changes in the social organisation, visible in the construction of monuments (megaliths) and the understanding of time (calendar circle and megalithic alignments).
Technological choices are bounded by the limits of resource access and technological knowledge. They are also restricted and driven by culture (Van der Leeuw 1993). It is within these confines of access (Arnold 1988) and learned behaviour (see Graves 1981) that technological and stylistic changes occur. Thus, the multitude of changes that appears in pottery during the Late Neolithic are an important reflection of broader changes that occur during this period."

now from pindars pillars of heracles comes the article on the left circa 4500bc. on the right is predynastic egypt 4000ish bc


idol of left is predynastic egyptian and the earlier unit n the right is from the danube
 
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AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,980
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#34
I have googled "Lord of the hidden circles of the Duat " and only 1 result has appeared ... connected with Graham Hancock ...

I repeat that what you are posting here is not in the texts of the pyramid of Unas. You are mixing the Praises of Ra [see Budge's "Gods of the Egyptians", Vol I, page 339 - 348], where there are the "hidden circles".
 
Aug 2018
24
Canada
#35
I have googled "Lord of the hidden circles of the Duat " and only 1 result has appeared ... connected with Graham Hancock ...

I repeat that what you are posting here is not in the texts of the pyramid of Unas. You are mixing the Praises of Ra [see Budge's "Gods of the Egyptians", Vol I, page 339 - 348], where there are the "hidden circles".
yes i know i am not quoting unas. again unas simply is the best and first description of how to get to the duat where the other texts say the circles are. i would find the bit in unas where he gets in the boat and lets the imperishable stars carry him. if you follow his directions do you find the same archeological artifacts that you find at the founding of egypt but earlier as you should. even down to mastabas. that is how you check a hypothesis.

the serser text is from budge, god pen alford and polar tepen faulkner. ordinarily you could take a piece of the text and search it in google books... you will find its from the book of gates a version of which is found in setis tomb. only the budge version is now free in this world.

but really what does that have to do with a physical atlantis? if anything it might show that the gods of the egyptians are the same gods as the persians which is problematic for the greeks but that is not a new idea.

have you no interest in actually knowing if science has found pindars geography productive? i assure you it was interested.
 

AlpinLuke

Ad Honoris
Oct 2011
24,980
Lago Maggiore, Italy
#36
yes i know i am not quoting unas. again unas simply is the best and first description of how to get to the duat where the other texts say the circles are. i would find the bit in unas where he gets in the boat and lets the imperishable stars carry him. if you follow his directions do you find the same archeological artifacts that you find at the founding of egypt but earlier as you should. even down to mastabas. that is how you check a hypothesis.

the serser text is from budge, god pen alford and polar tepen faulkner. ordinarily you could take a piece of the text and search it in google books... you will find its from the book of gates a version of which is found in setis tomb. only the budge version is now free in this world.

but really what does that have to do with a physical atlantis? if anything it might show that the gods of the egyptians are the same gods as the persians which is problematic for the greeks but that is not a new idea.

have you no interest in actually knowing if science has found pindars geography productive? i assure you it was interested.
Are you wondering if Pindar's conception of the "pillars" could be the right suggestion to understand where "Atlantis" may be was? That is to say a metaphorical boundary ... the limit of the geographical knowledge of the Greeks ...

Well, it's an option, but pay attention that with or without Pindar, many authors have already made similar considerations ... there is who even says that Atlantis is in Antarctica ...
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
2,667
Australia
#37
Plato invents Atlantis as an allegory for what happens to a civilization that suffers from too much hubris and becomes too imperialistic. In that sense, Atlantis is based on Athens more than anything else. However, to make the allegory better literature, he sets it in a far distant past and makes strong allusions to Greek mythology, which always viewed the past as larger, more heroic, closer to the gods and in every day greater than the present day. So he invents an ancient civilization which is larger-than-life in every way. It's on an island bigger than Africa and Asia combined. It's beyond the Pillars of Hercules. They have hugely advanced technology and society (for their time). And so on...
I thought it was an allegory about Greek corruption and that Plato masked it as it as he might have been worried to say it outright ...... and then be asked to drink hemlock cordial . Then again stories are sometimes based on some element of myth, remembrance or fact .

Dont I know why people get so upset about it though and seem outraged over a simple question :think:

Must be a 'sore spot' .

So Atlantis is invented in the same way as, say, the world of game thrones is. It never existed, never will and, the author most probably never tried to make people believe it was a real physical place. However, all authors draw inspiration from somewhere. GRR Martin draws from Roman and late-medieval history when he constructs Westeros and Essos. It's entirely plausible that Plato would draw from Minoan history and mythology. But that doesn't mean that Atlantis is a portrayal of the Minoans any more than the Andals are a portrayal of the Normans. It's just a feature of human imagination that, when we create things, we draw inspiration from what we know.

@specul8 If you want a source, read the relevant sections of Timaeus. It's blatantly obvious that it is an allegory.
I have always thought it was an allegory , an allegory probably made up from a variety of sources . But what has made it so popular of late is a different concept altogether - ' DONELLIAN ATLANTIS ' , that's a LOT more wackier ; biblical based, racial stuff post Victorian occult stuff , etc..


Ignatius L. Donnelly - Wikipedia


Anyway , looks like 'Historians' are still searching for it and Historians believe they have found it . Cadiz again .

Historians Claim To Have Found The Remains Of Atlantis Near The Coast Of Spain | Ancient Code

;)

Hang on ! They are going to make a film about it ; " All of their discoveries will be featured in a movie titled Atlantica, "

and

" Atlantica, produced by documentary filmmaker Michael Donnellan " - DONNELLAN ATLANTIS / DONNELLIAN ATLANTIS ..... :think:
 
Jan 2015
856
England
#38
So Atlantis is invented in the same way as, say, the world of game thrones is. It never existed, never will and, the author most probably never tried to make people believe it was a real physical place. However, all authors draw inspiration from somewhere. GRR Martin draws from Roman and late-medieval history when he constructs Westeros and Essos. It's entirely plausible that Plato would draw from Minoan history and mythology. But that doesn't mean that Atlantis is a portrayal of the Minoans any more than the Andals are a portrayal of the Normans. It's just a feature of human imagination that, when we create things, we draw inspiration from what we know.
Well where do you draw the line? How much information needs to be correct because it transitions from 'inspired by' to 'based on' or even simply 'is'? Plato's description of Atlantis fits numerous details regarding the geography, culture, religion, customs, and history of the Minoans? Many of the apparent inconsistencies could be put down to modern misconceptions, like where the pillars of Hercules were supposed to be (contrary to popular opinion, there are many examples to show that the expression was by no means standardised).
 

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