Bavarian Empire

Jun 2017
2,988
Connecticut
Emperor of the Bavarians here to finally make a thread about...Bavarians!

Bavaria is(arguably) the most historically important German state outside of Prussia and Austria(neither of which are currently in Germany). For a time Bavaria was one of the most powerful as well, certainly more powerful than Brandenburg/Prussia until the 1700s. So making a thread to discuss why Bavaria failed to become the German hegemon and to discuss Bavaria's apex of power.
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,994
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Emperor of the Bavarians here to finally make a thread about...Bavarians!

Bavaria is(arguably) the most historically important German state outside of Prussia and Austria(neither of which are currently in Germany). For a time Bavaria was one of the most powerful as well, certainly more powerful than Brandenburg/Prussia until the 1700s. So making a thread to discuss why Bavaria failed to become the German hegemon and to discuss Bavaria's apex of power.
Well, in order to become "the German hegemon" before 1806 the ruler of Bavaria would have to successfully commit treason against the Holy Roman Empire. And not all the Bavarian rulers were evil traitors. Several Bavarian rulers, but not all of them, did unsuccessfully commit treason against the Holy Roman Empire before 1806. And of course after 1806 there would be little chance of Bavaria becoming "German hegemon" since the OP admits that Prussia became more powerful than Bavaria in the 1700s.
 
Apr 2017
138
Bayreuth
Emperor of the Bavarians here to finally make a thread about...Bavarians!
Greetings, your majesty and...

Yay! Finally... millions of people all around the world, can participate live on the internet, what people in Germany have to endure in real-life for decades. It is not only a thread, Sire – it is an experience of Germanic cultures in an historical envoirement. A wonderfull idea!
~ Why... are the Bavarians just great? ~

Bavaria is(arguably) the most historically important German state outside of Prussia and Austria(neither of which are currently in Germany).
Prussia... Austria... and Bavaria... And then people are wondering why we say, if our great-grandfathers would have known how this turned out they would have followed Napoleon into hell... *urhm...

But, yes, your highness. Prussia – Austria – Bavaria. Wonderfully spoken. Germania in all history in a nutshell, your highness.

I might, with all respect, only advice, the liege – in the absence of the Lutheran Mary-deniers of the north - that they might understand themselves still as Prussians in the regions north of your Bavarian realm and by that still part of Germany.
But maybe they are uneducated people, your highness – they might not have the Bavarian insight concerning their origin.

For a time Bavaria was one of the most powerful as well, certainly more powerful than Brandenburg/Prussia until the 1700s.
Hail, Bavaria!

So making a thread to discuss why Bavaria failed to become the German hegemon and to discuss Bavaria's apex of power.
Maybe it has something to do with the people west of them, that understand themselves as the final frontier of evil, that suppressed for centuries any advantages of the liege's people, most progressive developments to enlighten the European...like... uhm.. pfff... yeaaah...
Maybe the liege would like to contribute on that more - as for some reason I can only recall the last thing that came out of Bavaria, because somebody asked in the History Help section what happend to the NSDAP after 1923... and I was close to answering him. I am sorry. :(

BUT: My Muslim-Ex, Sire, comes to my mind, a very smart woman, who came from a non-European country that was no soccer nation. She once (concerning their country's soccer performance) said: You need to loose to win. I just do not know for how long further we have to loose, till somebody realizes that we do not have the fundamentals right.

That might not only count for sports, my lord.

If I may display this via a Bavarian contribution.

The Bavarian hymn.

The foreign listener might realize that it is sung in High-German, what is a Northern-German dialect. It is fundamentals, Sire. They are never to underestimate.^^ No matter when in time.

:)
 
Jul 2017
330
Germany
A thread about Bavaria, with an accusation of treason in the very first reply and a contribution from Cologne in the second – I think I'll get the popcorn!

From a Bavarian perspective: Charlemagne took our Tassilo away in 788 (actually, Tassilo's head had been handed to him on a silver platter by the Bavarian »nobiles« but that's beside the point), and we've never recovered from that. We're still traumatized. That's it.

On topic: the only real emperor of Bavaria (beside the one who started this thread, of course) was, to my knowledge, Ludwig der Bayer (Ludwig IV) in the 14th century. As a Bavarian I should probably also count Karl Albrecht (Karl VII) but, well … didn't quite work out. Bavaria was split into several duchies for long periods of time, and the most important branch of the Wittelsbach family sat in the Palatinate anyway.
I guess the most ambitious Bavarian rulers were Ferdinand Maria and Max II Emmanuel in the 17th and 18th century. That elector title really had gone to their head.
In 1799 the Bavarian branch of the Wittelsbach family went extinct and the elector of the Palatinate Karl Theodor also became elector of Bavaria. He was so charmed by his new subjects that he desperately tried to exchange them for … pretty much anything if only he would be allowed to get back home to Mannheim!
And then came »Prince Max«, Maximilian IV Joseph, and Napoleon, and things got really funny for a while. For god's sake there also was Montgelas. As for the Bavarian kings, it's fascinating to see so many different shades of weirdness in only one family …

Prussia... Austria... and Bavaria... And then people are wondering why we say, if our great-grandfathers would have known how this turned out they would have followed Napoleon into hell... *urhm...
Well, considering how many Bavarians went on the Russian campaign one might argue at least those did ...

The Bavarian hymn.

The foreign listener might realize that it is sung in High-German, what is a Northern-German dialect. It is fundamentals, Sire. They are never to underestimate.^^ No matter when in time.
I hear you. And give to this in return:

(The Bavarian hymn as it should be, according to Biermösl Blosn.)
 
Jun 2017
2,988
Connecticut
Well, in order to become "the German hegemon" before 1806 the ruler of Bavaria would have to successfully commit treason against the Holy Roman Empire. And not all the Bavarian rulers were evil traitors. Several Bavarian rulers, but not all of them, did unsuccessfully commit treason against the Holy Roman Empire before 1806. And of course after 1806 there would be little chance of Bavaria becoming "German hegemon" since the OP admits that Prussia became more powerful than Bavaria in the 1700s.
Never denied they'd have to commit treason, but saying they're "evil traitors" seems to hint pretty strongly at anti Bavarian bias.
 
Jun 2017
2,988
Connecticut
Greetings, your majesty and...

Yay! Finally... millions of people all around the world, can participate live on the internet, what people in Germany have to endure in real-life for decades. It is not only a thread, Sire – it is an experience of Germanic cultures in an historical envoirement. A wonderfull idea!
~ Why... are the Bavarians just great? ~



Prussia... Austria... and Bavaria... And then people are wondering why we say, if our great-grandfathers would have known how this turned out they would have followed Napoleon into hell... *urhm...

But, yes, your highness. Prussia – Austria – Bavaria. Wonderfully spoken. Germania in all history in a nutshell, your highness.

I might, with all respect, only advice, the liege – in the absence of the Lutheran Mary-deniers of the north - that they might understand themselves still as Prussians in the regions north of your Bavarian realm and by that still part of Germany.
But maybe they are uneducated people, your highness – they might not have the Bavarian insight concerning their origin.



Hail, Bavaria!



Maybe it has something to do with the people west of them, that understand themselves as the final frontier of evil, that suppressed for centuries any advantages of the liege's people, most progressive developments to enlighten the European...like... uhm.. pfff... yeaaah...
Maybe the liege would like to contribute on that more - as for some reason I can only recall the last thing that came out of Bavaria, because somebody asked in the History Help section what happend to the NSDAP after 1923... and I was close to answering him. I am sorry. :(

BUT: My Muslim-Ex, Sire, comes to my mind, a very smart woman, who came from a non-European country that was no soccer nation. She once (concerning their country's soccer performance) said: You need to loose to win. I just do not know for how long further we have to loose, till somebody realizes that we do not have the fundamentals right.

That might not only count for sports, my lord.

If I may display this via a Bavarian contribution.

The Bavarian hymn.

The foreign listener might realize that it is sung in High-German, what is a Northern-German dialect. It is fundamentals, Sire. They are never to underestimate.^^ No matter when in time.

:)
This is hilarious.
 
Jun 2017
2,988
Connecticut
A thread about Bavaria, with an accusation of treason in the very first reply and a contribution from Cologne in the second – I think I'll get the popcorn!

From a Bavarian perspective: Charlemagne took our Tassilo away in 788 (actually, Tassilo's head had been handed to him on a silver platter by the Bavarian »nobiles« but that's beside the point), and we've never recovered from that. We're still traumatized. That's it.

On topic: the only real emperor of Bavaria (beside the one who started this thread, of course) was, to my knowledge, Ludwig der Bayer (Ludwig IV) in the 14th century. As a Bavarian I should probably also count Karl Albrecht (Karl VII) but, well … didn't quite work out. Bavaria was split into several duchies for long periods of time, and the most important branch of the Wittelsbach family sat in the Palatinate anyway.
I guess the most ambitious Bavarian rulers were Ferdinand Maria and Max II Emmanuel in the 17th and 18th century. That elector title really had gone to their head.
In 1799 the Bavarian branch of the Wittelsbach family went extinct and the elector of the Palatinate Karl Theodor also became elector of Bavaria. He was so charmed by his new subjects that he desperately tried to exchange them for … pretty much anything if only he would be allowed to get back home to Mannheim!
And then came »Prince Max«, Maximilian IV Joseph, and Napoleon, and things got really funny for a while. For god's sake there also was Montgelas. As for the Bavarian kings, it's fascinating to see so many different shades of weirdness in only one family …



Well, considering how many Bavarians went on the Russian campaign one might argue at least those did ...



I hear you. And give to this in return:

(The Bavarian hymn as it should be, according to Biermösl Blosn.)
Karl VII and a victory in that war is the main thing that comes to mind but yeah as late as the Napoleonic Wars, Bavaria becoming the hegemonic German power wasn't out of the question. Also was thinking of the War of Spanish succession to a lesser extent.

Poor Tassilo:(
 
Jul 2017
330
Germany
Yes - his problem was that Maria Theresia also ruled from 1740-1780.
That's Karl Albrecht, son of Max Emanuel. He decided he had a better claim to power than the daughter of the last Habsburg emperor (the Habsburg family had gone extinct in the male line), rebelled against her in what is called the War of Austrian Succession, was briefly elected emperor and then factually got his arse handed to him by Maria Theresia. He had to flee Bavaria and spent almost the rest of his life in exile.
After his death in 1745, Maria Theresia had her husband, Franz Stephan von Lothringen / Francis duke of Lorraine, elected emperor in order to avoid all future ... confusions.
Later, when the Bavarian Wittelsbach branch went extinct in 1777, Austria saw Bavaria as fair game and tried to acquire as much territory as possible.

There was no love lost between Wittelsbach and Habsburg in those days. :squinting: So once Napoleon showed up it was easy for him to use these feelings to his advantage and to convince the Bavarians to, as MAGolding put it, commit treason once more. But I do not see Bavaria playing any significant role in Europe anymore after Napoleon had entered the stage.
 
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clement

Ad Honorem
Jun 2011
2,141
California, USA
Emperor of the Bavarians here to finally make a thread about...Bavarians!

Bavaria is(arguably) the most historically important German state outside of Prussia and Austria(neither of which are currently in Germany). For a time Bavaria was one of the most powerful as well, certainly more powerful than Brandenburg/Prussia until the 1700s. So making a thread to discuss why Bavaria failed to become the German hegemon and to discuss Bavaria's apex of power.
Maybe because it did not have Frederick II as a commander and did not build a completely over-sized army (when compared to the state's population and economy) which meant that they were invaded by Austria several times while Prussia was not. Bavaria also launched its bid for power within the empire a bit too early while Prussia only did so in 1740 when Austria was in deep turmoil. I think that overall, Prussians leaders were more pragmatic than their bavarian counterparts. They tended to side with the right power at the right time (Austria against Louis XIV), were ready to build up their forces internally before actually undertaking any expansion and to wait for the best opportunities to do so.
 
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