Before the 13th Century, did any Groups establish lands or contacts in North or South America?

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,905
Portugal
Could any ships have ended up in what is today New York or Florida
Of course they could, dragged by a storm or some unforeseen matter. Besides Portuguese, Galicians, Basques, Bretons went fishing far away from shore, cod or dolphin fishing. Probably they saw Terra Nova several times, at least in the 15th century. But probably is not certainly. As already mentioned there are many legends about lands in the West.
 
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Jun 2017
462
maine
What is the origin of the legend? Is it avaiable in English online?
The link that Hoosierhiver gave is pretty good--read the comments by the author. If you google "madoc ab gawainn gwynedd", you'll find dozens of accounts. The one in Wikipedia is especially well sourced. I don't know the origin of the legend, but I'll guess that it is Welsh; Wikipedia says that the earliest reference is the poet Maredudd ap Rhys of Powys.
 

Edratman

Forum Staff
Feb 2009
6,702
Eastern PA
I thought that the 13th century was a good time to start from. I wanted to try and provide as long a timeline as possible before the Columbus era.

How about from 1200ad -1300ad...has anyone come across any groups that made it to North or South America? Could any ships have ended up in what is today New York or Florida
The Europeans did not possess the ship technology to make a round trip Atlantic crossing in 1300. The island hopping technique used by the Vikings across the North Atlantic obviously worked, but this dictates landfall in far NE Canada, a very long way from NY and Florida.

This pretty much eliminates the probability of a group intentionally boarding ships to make a trans Atlantic crossing.

There is a good chance that a few ships were carried across the Atlantic by storms with some crew members surviving, but you must realize that these ships were not probably not carrying supplies for a lengthy voyage, so food and water become significant issues. Also if they somehow survived to land in the Americas and intended to return home, the ship would have required repairs and refitting without access to proper supplies. That is a pretty stiff requirement to overcome.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,905
Portugal
The link that Hoosierhiver gave is pretty good--read the comments by the author. If you google "madoc ab gawainn gwynedd", you'll find dozens of accounts. The one in Wikipedia is especially well sourced. I don't know the origin of the legend, but I'll guess that it is Welsh; Wikipedia says that the earliest reference is the poet Maredudd ap Rhys of Powys.
Yes, I read Hoosierhiver’s link. And I also read Wikipedia’s entry “Madoc”, even if I don’t know if it is particularly well sourced:

“The Madoc story evidently originated in medieval romance. There are allusions to what may have been a sea voyage tale akin to The Voyage of Saint Brendan,[citation needed] but no detailed version of it survives.

The earliest certain reference to a seafaring Madoc or Madog appears in a cywydd by the Welsh poet Maredudd ap Rhys (fl. 1450–83) of Powys, which mentions a Madog who is a son or descendant of Owain Gwynedd and who voyaged to the sea. The poem is addressed to a local squire, thanking him for a fishing net on a patron's behalf. Madog is referred to as "Splendid Madog ... / Of Owain Gwynedd's line, / He desired not land ... / Or worldy wealth but the sea." A Flemish writer called Willem, in around 1250 to 1255,[citation needed]…”

Madoc - Wikipedia

Rephrasing and clarifying my previous post about this, I was asking is the “cywydd” wrote by Maredudd ap Rhys of Powys, apparently available in the folios 1450-83, is available online and in English.

Anyway the issue was clearly strong mystified in the centuries after, particularly after the discovery of America by Columbus, so somethings may be difficult to understand.
 
Aug 2018
529
Southern Indiana
Hehehe! From your link: "Mr. Marx said yesterday that the Portuguese authorities were trying to block Brazil from issuing him a permit to excavate the wreck he thinks is buried there."

Mr. Marx forgot that Brazil is independent since 1822.

In some way that reminds that Phoenician forgery found in Brazil in the late 19th century.

EDIT:



What is the origin of the legend? Is it avaiable in English online?
I don't remember where I first heard the story, but it goes something like Modac was one of many sons and left to find his fortune. Part of the legend is that the natives in the area told of a battle with "red haired people" who were wiped out by the natives. Supposedly there is a field outside of Charlestown Indiana that had a significant number of human bones from some battle and there are the remains of a "stone fort of unknown origin" on a ridge that was surveyed by the Army Corp of Engineers years ago. I remember seeing it referenced at the museum at the Falls of the Ohio some years back.
 
Last edited:
Aug 2018
529
Southern Indiana
I have also heard stories that the Mandan Indians had connections with the Welsh, but as far as I know there is no evidence to support that.
 
Aug 2018
529
Southern Indiana
I don't remember where I first heard the story, but it goes something like Modac was one of many sons and left to find his fortune. Part of the legend is that the natives in the area told of a battle with "red haired people" who were wiped out by the natives. Supposedly there is a field outside of Charlestown Indiana that had a significant number of human bones from some battle and there are the remains of a "stone fort of unknown origin" on a ridge that was surveyed by the Army Corp of Engineers years ago. I remember seeing it referenced at the museum at the Falls of the Ohio some years back.
The tale of Prince Madoc - Falls of the Ohio State Park
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,941
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
I have also heard stories that the Mandan Indians had connections with the Welsh, but as far as I know there is no evidence to support that.
The Mandan population was greatly reduced in a smallpox epidemic in 1837-1838. Sioux raids became so bad that the Mandans, the Arikara, and the Hidatsa abandoned their villages west of the Missouri River and established a joint village east of the Missouri River. In about 1934, the three tribes officially merged to form the Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara Nation also known as the Three Affiliated Tribes of the fort Berthold Reservation.

Speculation about pre-Columbian European contact[edit]
18th-century reports about characteristics of Mandan lodges, religion and occasional physical features among tribal members, such as blue and grey eyes along with lighter hair coloring, stirred speculation about the possibility of pre-Columbian European contact. Catlin believed the Mandan were the "Welsh Indians" of folklore, descendants of Prince Madoc and his followers who emigrated to America from Wales in about 1170. This view was popular at the time but has since been disputed by the bulk of scholarship.[32]

Hjalmar Holand had proposed that interbreeding with Norse survivors might explain the "blond" Indians among the Mandan on the Upper Missouri River.[33] In a multidisciplinary study of the Kensington Runestone, anthropologist Alice Beck Kehoe dismissed, as "tangential" to the Runestone issue, this and other historical references suggesting pre-Columbian contacts with 'outsiders', such as the Hochunk (Winnebago) story about an ancestral hero "Red Horn" and his encounter with "red-haired giants".[34] Archaeologist Ken Feder has stated that none of the material evidence that would be expected from a Viking presence in and travel through the American Midwest exists.[35]
Mandan - Wikipedia
 
Aug 2018
529
Southern Indiana
The Mandan population was greatly reduced in a smallpox epidemic in 1837-1838. Sioux raids became so bad that the Mandans, the Arikara, and the Hidatsa abandoned their villages west of the Missouri River and established a joint village east of the Missouri River. In about 1934, the three tribes officially merged to form the Mandan, Hidatsa, and Arikara Nation also known as the Three Affiliated Tribes of the fort Berthold Reservation.



Mandan - Wikipedia
It's a shame, they were a very interesting people. The Mandan helped the Lewis and Clark expedition survive their first winter.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,905
Portugal
I don't remember where I first heard the story, but it goes something like Modac was one of many sons and left to find his fortune. Part of the legend is that the natives in the area told of a battle with "red haired people" who were wiped out by the natives. Supposedly there is a field outside of Charlestown Indiana that had a significant number of human bones from some battle and there are the remains of a "stone fort of unknown origin" on a ridge that was surveyed by the Army Corp of Engineers years ago. I remember seeing it referenced at the museum at the Falls of the Ohio some years back.
My question was not about the story in the USA, so a post-Columbian story, but the Medieval origins of legend in Welch, such as the cywydd by Maredudd ap Rhys or Willem die Madoc. According to the Wikipedia (Willem die Madoc maecte - Wikipedia) no copies of this last one survived, and the entry quotes: Williams, Gwyn A. (1979), Madoc: The Making of a Myth, Eyre Methuen, pp.51; 76. So, those are the real sources, the rest are mostly 16th to 19th century constructions, already polluted by the arrival of the post-Columbian Europeans to America.

And looking to many poems we know how difficult to trace a map. Let us take a look to the Odyssey, or to the periplus Ora Maritima of Avienus, just to make two examples.

So, in the original sources what points to America? And not to other lands?

Anyway, in my recent net search I found this article by Julie Shields: Robert Southey's "Madoc" in America on JSTOR

That shows the problems of post-Columbian interpretations in the 18th and 19th centuries.