Bhimbhitka and Indus Civilization composite bows depiction 3rd millennium BC

Aug 2014
4,029
Australia
#21
Littauer and Crouwel are the foremost experts on the chariot. Their definition is: ‘a light, fast, two-wheeled, usually horse-drawn, vehicle with spoked wheels; used for warfare, hunting, racing and ceremonial purposes. Its crew usually stood’
 
Jun 2017
505
usa
#22
That m
Littauer and Crouwel are the foremost experts on the chariot. Their definition is: ‘a light, fast, two-wheeled, usually horse-drawn, vehicle with spoked wheels; used for warfare, hunting, racing and ceremonial purposes. Its crew usually stood’
That may be so but the "chariots" in Hindu literature such as the Rig veda is called "ratha", which could also mean a cart or a wagon and can have more wheels than two and can accomodate more than 2 people.

There is a verse in the Rig veda, IIRC, where it says that the chariot used by Indra could hold 6-8 people or something like that. I will look it up and post it.
 
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#23
the modern definition of chariot is having two wheels used for racing or fighting drawn by horses.

a two-wheeled vehicle that was used in ancient timesfor racing and fighting and was pulled by a horse orhorses

CHARIOT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
there is absolutely no mention of spoked wheels as a prerequisite, there seems absolutely no difference between the spoked wheel and a solid wheel chariot other than the spoked wheels seems to make the chariot lighter and faster, the whole construction and body seem to be the same other than spokes.

the insistence that chariots must have spokes seem incredible as chariots have been depicted with solid wheels even much later after the ''invention of spokes''.

regards
 
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Oct 2015
988
India
#24
The were no compostite bows that early. Just because it looks recurved doesn't mean that it has a composite construction. There are plenty of examples all over the world of recurve and double-recurve self bows. The earliest proper evidence of a composite bow dates to the middle of the second millennium.
Hi Dan,

Can you please elaborate more on recurved bows and composite bows.

Thanks

Rajeev
 
Feb 2013
4,263
Coastal Florida
#25
So which 2-wheeled vehicles were developed before 2000 BC?
Kenoyer noted early 2-wheeled vehicles in his paper Wheeled Vehicles of the Indus Valley Civilization of Pakistan and India. However, he specified that these were not chariots. Although, I guess it could depend on how one chooses to define a chariot because he also said some could have been used for racing (but that was speculation on his part based on the size of the vehicles involved). As for the particular model in question here, from prior reading about it, I seem to recall that testing showed the alloy contained arsenic which was otherwise unknown in Harappan metal artifacts and, on that basis, it's been posited that this "chariot" is actually not from the time it's purported to be from.
 
#26
Kenoyer noted early 2-wheeled vehicles in his paper Wheeled Vehicles of the Indus Valley Civilization of Pakistan and India. However, he specified that these were not chariots. Although, I guess it could depend on how one chooses to define a chariot because he also said some could have been used for racing (but that was speculation on his part based on the size of the vehicles involved). As for the particular model in question here, from prior reading about it, I seem to recall that testing showed the alloy contained arsenic which was otherwise unknown in Harappan metal artifacts and, on that basis, it's been posited that this "chariot" is actually not from the time it's purported to be from.
no, infact the arsenic indicates harappan periods

Ancient Asia

copper artifacts from Harappa and Mohenjo Daro demonstrated tin, arsenic, nickel or lead alloying
Copper in the Harappan Age

regards
 
Feb 2013
4,263
Coastal Florida
#27
no, infact the arsenic indicates harappan periods

Ancient Asia

regards
The article you cited is rather problematic. In the text, I see big red flags about whether these artifacts are even genuine. Previously unknown "artifacts" coming from private collections which are "better" than all previously excavated materials should be subject to the highest levels of skepticism. The works cited in the article to support the contention about arsenic alloys being common don't clearly support this contention. One can be read online and it doesn't mention arsenic...the other doesn't appear to be easily accessible but it's not about metal working in the IVC. Rather, it's about ancient metalworking in what's now Iraq.

As for what I initially said, it was just something I've read in the past. I didn't investigate it at the time. Although, I'll see what I can find to answer the question.

Edit:

I see you added another source. I'll check it out. Thanks.

Edit:

This is much more like it. Uncommon, yes, but apparently known. https://www.harappa.com/sites/defau...echnologies of the Indus Valley Tradition.pdf
 
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Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,441
USA
#28
That m


That may be so but the "chariots" in Hindu literature such as the Rig veda is called "ratha", which could also mean a cart or a wagon and can have more wheels than two and can accomodate more than 2 people.

There is a verse in the Rig veda, IIRC, where it says that the chariot used by Indra could hold 6-8 people or something like that. I will look it up and post it.
That's perfectly right. A chariot was called ratha originally and there is no reason for us to assume that chariot has to be two-wheeled, no matter who claims to be expert. By the way, a cart is called "shakata" in Rig Veda.
 
Apr 2012
246
Iowa, USA
#29
Cart: a strong open vehicle with two or four wheels, typically used for carrying loads and pulled by a horse.

So is a chariot a cart? Is a ratha a cart? Are all carts chariots? Are all rathas carts?
 

Aatreya

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
3,441
USA
#30
Cart: a strong open vehicle with two or four wheels, typically used for carrying loads and pulled by a horse.

So is a chariot a cart? Is a ratha a cart? Are all carts chariots? Are all rathas carts?
You have to know the meaning of the word "ratha" first. The word's etymology has no connection with how many wheels it has.

Ratha: Derives from the root "rahi" meaning speed. Other words connected to this root are ramhate, ramhamANa, etc.. , all indicating speed. The meaning of the word is "one that has speed".

The word chariot derives from "carrus", and is connected with the Vedic word "chakram". Chakram means wheel and is derived from the root "kramu" meaning movement (an alternative root suggested is "char" which also means movement). The word chakram means movement to come back to the same position. So the word "chariot" is not derived from a word that meant "a vehicle" but from a word that meant wheel.

The word wagon, which means carriage is derived from the Vedic word "vAhana", which itself is derived from the root "vah" meaning to move.

Coming to your points: A cart is called shakata. A chariot or Ratha is a kind of cart. All carts are not chariots but all chariots are carts, but special ones.
 

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