Biggest cities in Sub Saharan Africa (500-1500)

Mar 2014
336
Carthage
#71
I acept the Roman Empire and all the Euopean civilizations is at the end, an offspring of Middle Eastern cultures.

However, I find interesting the divide between Sub-Saharan and Sub-Equatorial Africa.

Sub-Saharan cultures to the Equator, and down the Indian Ocean to Mozambique in coastal areas are linked to civilizations of Europe and the ME. From a lesser degree (Niger area been more original) to a higher degree (Ethiopia been strongly linked, to the point of total confusion).

South of Equator appear native African cultures with little or no linkage with the rest of Old World cultures. That's fascinating to study.

North Africa along the coast was tied to the Mediterranean world because that is where the sea drains into. East Africa, Horn of Africa, South East Africa, Madagascar, southern Africa is apart of the Indian Ocean world. West and Central Africa was tied to the Atlantic world which plays out later in history when there are complex late iron age societies form in Western Europe and Western Africa along the coast, and near forest region. West Africa was also connected to the Mediterranean, Red Sea, Indian Ocean worlds due to the Trans-Saharan system. You can google ocean drainage systems and that will show you why certain parts of Africa interacted more with the Mediterranean, Red Sea, Indian Ocean, or Atlantic Ocean. Since most of the trade was coming from West Africa All interior roads lead there and back keeping West Africa connected throughout history.
 
Nov 2015
39
NY
#72
You need to understand that urbanization originated in the Middle East. Take Rome for example. At onset it was simply a collection of huts with a wooden palisade. Urbanization, agriculture etc spread from the Middle East to these places. Once the knowledge spread they then adapted local breakthroughs. They didn't develop out of a vacuum. It's also wrong to equate the Middle East with Arabs.

The beauty of African (uncontaminated) building organization is that it has very unique pattern to them that are not seen anywhere out of Africa. You know it's African instinctively by looking at it. You know Great Zimbabwe is African and you know Zanzibar isn't. It was not possible to understand them until a branch of mathematics that deals with fractal geometry was developed by a French mathematician called Mandelbrot. I'm serious when I say the patterns in Africa appear nowhere else on earth.
agriculture developed in many places not just the middle east
 
Apr 2017
614
Lemuria
#73
agriculture developed in many places not just the middle east
Who is debating that? By agriculture here I mean the agricultural practices developed by the Sumerians and people in the region around them and the domesticated animals and crops such as wheat, onion, garlic, figs, olive etc.
When Eridu was thriving, Italy was nothing.
Humanity is basically Sumer.
 
Aug 2016
925
Ireland, Dublin
#74
Who is debating that? By agriculture here I mean the agricultural practices developed by the Sumerians and people in the region around them and the domesticated animals and crops such as wheat, onion, garlic, figs, olive etc.
When Eridu was thriving, Italy was nothing.
Humanity is basically Sumer.
There's actually earlier European societies and cultures (look up the Danube civilization)
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,330
Portugal
#75
There's actually earlier European societies and cultures (look up the Danube civilization)
The civilization or civilizations of the Danube are quite interesting and still obscure to many in the West and in the world, maybe because the Cold War.

But I think that it is time to we have a better understanding and contextualization of those societies and their influence.
 
Apr 2017
614
Lemuria
#76
There's actually earlier European societies and cultures (look up the Danube civilization)
We are discussing this from a classical, mainstream historical POV just so this doesn't go off topic. Hence, of relevance here are the Romans and especially the Greeks.
There is a thread out there about the Pelasgians, Etruscans and Romans and how the "Pelasgians" predated those civilizations by FAR. How Pelasgian masonry was far superior.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
4,330
Portugal
#77
We are discussing this from a classical, mainstream historical POV just so this doesn't go off topic. Hence, of relevance here are the Romans and especially the Greeks.
There is a thread out there about the Pelasgians, Etruscans and Romans and how the "Pelasgians" predated those civilizations by FAR. How Pelasgian masonry was far superior.
I don’t think that the Danube civilizations have any direct link with the “Pelasgians”, who ever they were in Greece and the Egean. As far as I noted, and The Reality can correct me if I am wrong in this line of thinking, he was underlining the clear possibility that the Danube civilization(s) could in fact predate the Sumerian one, even if I recall reading Kramer “History Begins at Sumer”:

https://archive.org/details/Kramer1956HistoryBeginsAtSumer

Anyway, the study of the Civilization of the Danube is mainstream, not exoteric.
 
Aug 2016
925
Ireland, Dublin
#78
I don’t think that the Danube civilizations have any direct link with the “Pelasgians”, who ever they were in Greece and the Egean. As far as I noted, and The Reality can correct me if I am wrong in this line of thinking, he was underlining the clear possibility that the Danube civilization(s) could in fact predate the Sumerian one, even if I recall reading Kramer “History Begins at Sumer”:

https://archive.org/details/Kramer1956HistoryBeginsAtSumer

Anyway, the study of the Civilization of the Danube is mainstream, not exoteric.
Yes that's what I meant, I was also trying to point out that Sumeria isn't necessarily the cradle that all other civilizationzs come from
There's also gobekli tepe in turkey(obviously I wouldn't consider the site evidence for a civilization during the Neolithic)
But the highly sophisticated architecture is itself evidence for an advanced society of some kind.

And the Society of the Danube valley is extremely interesting to me, because it really does meet up to the western standard of civilization at such an early time in history, anyways, I think more research needs to be done in the study of the societies of the Danube valley.
 
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Frank81

Ad Honorem
Feb 2010
4,889
Canary Islands-Spain
#80
View attachment 14055

Can anyone tell me anything about the Various Yoruba city states?

According to Walter Rodney, a marxist historian which I admire a lot, in his work "How Europe underdeveloped Africa" he explains the development of the small, militaristic states of Yoruba and lower Nigeria due to the influence of the Europeans.

It is not he said civilization was developed by Europe, no way, on the opposite he identified the local and long lasting developments of native African cultures. But in the African context, where large empires integrating diverse areas were common, the rise of very little, and very powerful states, is linked to the trade of fire weapons and resources with the Europeans, which slave demand made this little and powerful states possible, with their thriving cities. In any case, the underliying factor here is the very high agriculture productivity, which is behind the strong demographic and urban development of the area.

The Oyo might be more in line with traditional African empires, but its rise as superpower around 1600 can't be a coincidence.