Book of Mormon

Aug 2016
29
UK
#31
The Electric Monk



- Electric Monks believed things for you, thus saving you what was becoming an increasingly onerous task,-


-Unfortunately this Electric Monk had developed a fault, and had started to believe all kinds of things, more or less at random. It was even beginning to believe things they'd have difficulty believing in Salt Lake City.......



 

athena

Ad Honorem
Jan 2010
4,959
Eugene, Oregon
#32
South Park had it right.

Thank you for the clip. Pretty amazing Joseph Smith got away with it.

If the lost tribes left Jursalem they would speak and write in Hebrew wouldn't they, not Egyptian? So many things in the story do not add up correctly, but really, the man's wife presents a test to prove Joseph is making up the story, and the man buys Joseph story of why he can not rewrite what he said was a translated? Really? It is hard to believe anyone could be that stupid, instead of a co-conspiritor.
 
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Bart Dale

Ad Honorem
Dec 2009
7,095
#33
Thank you for the clip. Pretty amazing Joseph Smith got away with it.

If the lost tribes left Jursalem they would speak and write in Hebrew wouldn't they, not Egyptian? So many things in the story do not add up correctly, but really, the man's wife presents a test to prove Joseph is making up the story, and the man buys Joseph story of why he can not rewrite what he said was a translated? Really? It is hard to believe anyone could be that stupid, instead of a co-conspiritor.
It Is the angel MORON(i) i that supposedly gave plates to Smith. The name seems almost an inside joke, unless the moron meant something different in the 19th century. Moroni is the kind of name I would invent as an inside joke
 
Feb 2015
365
Outer Deseret
#34
Ah, I don't think there could be more solid prove that Joseph Smith was a con-artist.
Maybe. I try really hard to stick to history and not label people. It's hard, but I try.

And perhaps I didn't read the link carefully enough, but I didn't see Egypt in the explanation of lost tribes. I mean, Joseph Smith's claim that he translated Egyptian words with special spectals, is made even worse with what he claimed to be Egyptian writing copied from the golden tabelts, or am I missing something?
You're missing quite a lot.

The Book of Mormon is strictly what the Mormons think is the history of these specific early new world civilizations. It doesn't have anything to do with the "lost tribes". That is covered by something called the Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) and various other Mormon writings.

Mormon prophets have the "keys" to direct communication with God. Joseph Smith is the only prophet who seemed to do it a lot and his revelations are in the D&C. But he was so specific about it that Article 10 of the Mormon "Articles of Faith" is "We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent ... ”

" ... the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north."
- Doctrine and Covenants 110:11

And also ...

"And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord ..."
- Doctrine and Covenants 133:26

Remember, Mormons believe the D&C is the literal word of God. They only believe the Bible "insofar as it has been correctly translated."

"The land of the north" was traditionally taken to mean the North Pole “containing thousands of millions of Israelites.” - W.W. Phelps, “Letter No. 11,” Latter-day Saints' Messenger & Advocate, October 1835, v. 2, no. 1, p. 194 Mormons will point out that Phelps was not a prophet and this is only his opinion. Anti-Mormons will point out that it was an opinion universally held by the early church.

As with many other things, more modern Mormon scholars rely on a lack of specificity and the fact that God can do anything to make this part of the theology more believable. The opinion that this will be a "spiritual" gathering rather than a physical one is also widely held these days. The Mormon site Fairmormon.org, for example, quotes Joseph Smith as saying

"... the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country. The people of the Lord, those who have complied with the requirements of the new covenant, have already commenced gathering together to Zion, which is in the state of Missouri."

Fairmormon points out that only "preparation" is required for the prophesy to be true. Your interpretation of the quote may vary from theirs.
 
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Feb 2015
365
Outer Deseret
#36
It's not a joke to them. A gold plated statue of Moroni is atop most Mormon temples. (A "temple" is much more sacred than everyday Mormon churches.)

But there are a lot of unique names in the Book of Mormon.
 

athena

Ad Honorem
Jan 2010
4,959
Eugene, Oregon
#38
It's not a joke to them. A gold plated statue of Moroni is atop most Mormon temples. (A "temple" is much more sacred than everyday Mormon churches.)

But there are a lot of unique names in the Book of Mormon.
And a statue of Liberty is on top of the US Capital Building and inside the building is a mural of the gods and goddess important to the success of democracy.

Perhaps we are working with different belief systems and continuing our discussion would not be a positive thing?
 
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Feb 2015
365
Outer Deseret
#39
I've never mentioned what my belief system is. (Well ... Except to say that I'm not a Mormon.) This is a history forum.

In any case, I love to learn about Mormon history and culture, but you must decide for yourself whether you're getting anything out of the conversation.
 
Feb 2015
365
Outer Deseret
#40
Ah, I don't think there could be more solid proof that Joseph Smith was a con-artist. ...
I'm not defending (or attacking) the Mormon faith here. I'm just providing information about the history of the Mormons.

There is a much more involved story about the "reformed Egyptian" that Joseph Smith claimed was the source of several of their sacred texts. But it would take several pages to completely tell the story. But here's a very, very brief version.

Part of the actual papyrus that Joseph Smith translated the Pearl of Great Price from was discovered in the basement of the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York a few decades ago. Knowing they had a very hot potato on their hands, the Met quietly gave it to the Mormons. The Mormons examined it privately for while and then in a very splashy public unveiling, they announced it to the world.

Once reputable Egyptologists got a look at images (the real thing was still off limits), they uniformly pronounced it to be a very ordinary and very common part of the Egyptian Book of the Dead and said it had absolutely nothing to do with what is in the Pearl of Great Price. Mormon authorities have had little to say about the actual artifact since then. It remains just one of a lot of things that are in the very secure LDS President's Vault that scholars would love to examine.
 

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