brahmins who converted to islam

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,095
New Delhi, India
#51
.. Dalit, considered so low as to be outside of caste Eg butchers, tanners, people who handle dead bodies.
To muddy the waters even further for a non Hindu is the Jati system of co-classification. I understand there are 3000 Jati in use today.
My questions ; Does every Jati trace its origins to one of the four original castes? Are Rajputs a Jati of Kshatriya? Or have I misunderstood 'Jati' at a fundamental level?
Your confusion is understandable.
- First thing, butchers, tanners are not outside the caste system. They belong to the 'Shudra' classification.
- Yes, some people who handled dead bodies were Chandalas. These people were outside the caste system, not among the four-fold division. They were composed of people from any of the four divisions who were thrown out from the society because of a serious crime or misdemeanor (they were barred from living in the city of the village). But then a caste of Brahmins were also involved in performing the rituals of the dead at the funeral grounds. They were considered the lowest of the brahmins and termed as 'Shmashan Brahmins'.
- The 'co-classification' is a result of 'co-existence'. The Aryans came with four divisions of society and the indigenous had thousands 'jatis' These thousands of 'jatis' were fitted in the four divisions when the two merged.
- No. Not all 'jatis' were part of the four fold division. That became necessary only after the coming of Aryans in India. Rajput (Raja+putra = son of a kingly family or of a warrior clan) is the same as Kshatriya, the people who were entrusted with the obligation of serving in the army and defending the motherland.
If you can understand what I have written here then you are through with the confusion.
 

rvsakhadeo

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
8,837
India
#52
Hardly any Brahmin has converted or has been converted in the past to Islam in the present day state of Maharashtra in southwest India. And it is a very populous and big state. And most certainly no one in recent times. I guess so is the case in the state of Karnatak and also of Tamilnadu. However it is likely that a substantial numbers of Brahmins might have been forcibly converted to Islam in the states of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh, because of the history of the rule of Muslim kingdoms there.
Interestingly the case of Reverend Tilak is there, a poet and a spiritual person who converted to Christianity in the late nineteenth century. His wife followed him some time afterwords. Both voluntary conversions, though they belonged to the caste of Chitpavan Brahmins.
It will be interesting to note that Netaji Palkar, a brave chieftain of the army of Shivaji Maharaj, the rebel Maratha King ( 1630-1680 ), was captured by the Moghul Emperor Aurangzeb and forcibly converted to Islam, sometime around 1670, named Mohammed Kuli Khan and posted to Afghanistan to try to curb the Afghans there. He escaped from there along with his family and after a very dangerous and trying journey, came back to Shivaji Maharaj. Shivaji reconverted him to his caste of the Marathas and to emphasize the reconversion gave his daughter in marriage to his son !
I think that Malik Kafur, one of the infamous and cruel convert to Islam in the service of Allauddin Khilaji, was a Gujarathi Brahmin, said to look as beautiful as a woman and was therefore castrated by Allauddin for keeping as a sex slave. He led many raids of the army of Allauddin Khilaji into south India and destroyed many temples there.
 
Likes: Jahnu
Dec 2018
53
India
#53
Hardly any Brahmin has converted or has been converted in the past to Islam in the present day state of Maharashtra in southwest India. And it is a very populous and big state. And most certainly no one in recent times. I guess so is the case in the state of Karnatak and also of Tamilnadu. However it is likely that a substantial numbers of Brahmins might have been forcibly converted to Islam in the states of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh, because of the history of the rule of Muslim kingdoms there.
Interestingly the case of Reverend Tilak is there, a poet and a spiritual person who converted to Christianity in the late nineteenth century. His wife followed him some time afterwords. Both voluntary conversions, though they belonged to the caste of Chitpavan Brahmins.
It will be interesting to note that Netaji Palkar, a brave chieftain of the army of Shivaji Maharaj, the rebel Maratha King ( 1630-1680 ), was captured by the Moghul Emperor Aurangzeb and forcibly converted to Islam, sometime around 1670, named Mohammed Kuli Khan and posted to Afghanistan to try to curb the Afghans there. He escaped from there along with his family and after a very dangerous and trying journey, came back to Shivaji Maharaj. Shivaji reconverted him to his caste of the Marathas and to emphasize the reconversion gave his daughter in marriage to his son !
I think that Malik Kafur, one of the infamous and cruel convert to Islam in the service of Allauddin Khilaji, was a Gujarathi Brahmin, said to look as beautiful as a woman and was therefore castrated by Allauddin for keeping as a sex slave. He led many raids of the army of Allauddin Khilaji into south India and destroyed many temples there.
Malio kafur was a Baniya Hindu afaik, one of the greatest general of india
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#54
Your confusion is understandable.
- First thing, butchers, tanners are not outside the caste system. They belong to the 'Shudra' classification.
- Yes, some people who handled dead bodies were Chandalas. These people were outside the caste system, not among the four-fold division. They were composed of people from any of the four divisions who were thrown out from the society because of a serious crime or misdemeanor (they were barred from living in the city of the village). But then a caste of Brahmins were also involved in performing the rituals of the dead at the funeral grounds. They were considered the lowest of the brahmins and termed as 'Shmashan Brahmins'.
- The 'co-classification' is a result of 'co-existence'. The Aryans came with four divisions of society and the indigenous had thousands 'jatis' These thousands of 'jatis' were fitted in the four divisions when the two merged.
- No. Not all 'jatis' were part of the four fold division. That became necessary only after the coming of Aryans in India. Rajput (Raja+putra = son of a kingly family or of a warrior clan) is the same as Kshatriya, the people who were entrusted with the obligation of serving in the army and defending the motherland.
If you can understand what I have written here then you are through with the confusion.

Thank you for that, very enlightening. The caste systems is staggeringly bewildering to me. I've always thought ALL castes are related the original four from the Law of Manu.

The system as you've explained seems deeply entrenched. There have been efforts to abolish caste since Gandhi. I was glad when I read about Dalit PM's. How did that work? Eg association with say high caste brahmins? How does caste effect Indian politics ,if at all?

From what you've told me, and from what I've read recently about caste violence, it seems there is still a long way to go.

Some one mentioned Brahmins in Pakistan converting to Islam. I can understand a Shudra converting as Islam has no caste system. Why would a Brahmin convert unless his life was in danger?

Sorry to pester you with more questions, I usually get some pretty good information when asking people involved in social customs and systems. Caste is a great example.
 

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,517
USA
#55
Thank you for that, very enlightening. The caste systems is staggeringly bewildering to me. I've always thought ALL castes are related the original four from the Law of Manu.

The system as you've explained seems deeply entrenched. There have been efforts to abolish caste since Gandhi. I was glad when I read about Dalit PM's. How did that work? Eg association with say high caste brahmins? How does caste effect Indian politics ,if at all?

From what you've told me, and from what I've read recently about caste violence, it seems there is still a long way to go.

Some one mentioned Brahmins in Pakistan converting to Islam. I can understand a Shudra converting as Islam has no caste system. Why would a Brahmin convert unless his life was in danger?

Sorry to pester you with more questions, I usually get some pretty good information when asking people involved in social customs and systems. Caste is a great example.
You are correct. Four fold caste system is at the top level. Under each of the four castes there are numerous sub-castes, which are known as Jati. Though Hindus mostly identify themselves with their Jati names, they all know where they fit in within the four fold caste system. Caste system is not difficult to understand once one gets the basics right.

Brahmin conversions to Islam are just hoax. It is always the Muslims who claim such conversions, but when one really digs into it there is nothing to really support such claims. People who make such claims have a self interest in doing so, mainly to elevate their social status, when living within a broad caste ridden Hindu culture.
 
Likes: Jahnu
Aug 2014
1,079
pakistan
#56
The famous Urdu poet Allama Iqbal was of Brahman Kashmiri background. This article by Khushwant Singh gives the following history and background of his family:

"The family traces its origin to one Birbal. They lived in the village of Saprain (hence, the surname Sapru) on Shopian-Kulgam road. Then the family moved to Srinagar where Iqbal and most of his cousins were born. Birbal had five sons and a daughter. The third one, Kanhaya Lal, and his wife, Indirani, had three sons and five daughters. Kanhaya Lal was Iqbal’s grandfather. His son, Rattan Lal, converted to Islam and was given the name Nur Mohammad. He married a Muslim woman — Imam Bibi. The Saprus disowned Rattan Lal and severed all connections with him. There are different versions of Rattan Lal’s conversion. The one given to me by Syeda Hameed, who has translated some of Iqbal’s poetry into English, maintains that Rattan Lal was the revenue collector of the Afghan governor of Kashmir. He was caught embezzling money. The governor offered him a choice: he should either convert to Islam or be hanged. Rattan Lal chose to stay alive. When the Afghan governor fled from Kashmir to escape its takeover by the Sikhs, Rattan Lal migrated to Sialkot. Imam Bibi was evidently a Sialkoti Punjabi. Iqbal was born in Sialkot on November 9, 1877. !
 
Likes: Aupmanyav

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,095
New Delhi, India
#57
The system as you've explained seems deeply entrenched. There have been efforts to abolish caste since Gandhi. I was glad when I read about Dalit PM's. How did that work? Eg association with say high caste brahmins? How does caste effect Indian politics, if at all?

Some one mentioned Brahmins in Pakistan converting to Islam. I can understand a Shudra converting as Islam has no caste system. Why would a Brahmin convert unless his life was in danger?
Yeah, the caste system has deep roots and there is still a long way to go, especially in villages and we have some 500,000 of them. Though the Indian Constitution and Supreme Court would have none of it. The laws about caste discrimination are very tough. But caste remains one of the strongest factor in Indian politics.

Prime Minister Modi is not a dalit, he is from what we call as 'Other Backward Classes'. To give special facilities to the deprived (Affirmative action), the Indian society has been divided into three sectors - 1. The 'forward/higher castes', who as the Constitution thinks, need no help, 2. 'Other Backward Classes', who need some help, and 3. listed (Scheduled backward) castes and tribes who need the most help. PM Modis party does not believe in castes and speaks in favor of Hindus (but is not against other religions). Modi has worked for the party for all his life. He is not alone, so many other people have dedicated their lives to their cause. Why he became the PM is by fate and chance.

Yeah, the persons life may be in danger or the pressure of society, jobs or safety in business, many reasons. There are reports tht Hindu girls are forcibly abducted and married saying that it was their own desire to embrace Islam and marry that person.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#58
"Prime Minister Modi is not a dalit" I don't think I mentioned the present Indian PM, I meant the two past 2 Dalit PM's, whose names I have forgotten . Sorry for any confusion.
 
Jul 2017
510
Sydney
#59
"Prime Minister Modi is not a dalit" I don't think I mentioned the present Indian PM, I meant the two past 2 Dalit PM's, whose names I have forgotten . Sorry for any confusion.
There is no dearth of opportunity in modern India for people, irrespective of their caste or creed

The Indian media is quick to spread stories of hate but they skip the absolute absence of caste divide in most villages in the modern era. The evidence for this last statement is the fact that kids of all backgrounds go to the same school in villages and sit and play with each other without any problem. This is the real truth of modern India - there is absolutely no untouchability
 
Last edited:
Dec 2018
53
India
#60
I don't know where you live, but that does not matter. Perhaps you have heard the name of Sir Saifuddin Kichlu or Allama Mohammad Iqbal, they were from brahmin families who converted to Islam. There are loads and loads of Butts, Pandits and Dars (Kashmiri brahmin surnames) who are Muslims now, Salman Butt, the cricketer, being one example.
butt is generic name used for kashmirirs, Dar claims to be a kshatriya class alongside lone in both punjab and kashmir.

population of kashmir is 7 million today, i highly doubt that somehow 5 to 7 million people in kashmir are Brahmin converts when brahmins in all over india have population of 2.5% according to their own estimates.

Brahman descendants are considered a low class in Islam as Rajputs, Afghans, Turks forms warrior class while Sayyids form the top most priestly class leaving brahmins alongside other commoner Muslims.
 
Likes: Kadi

Similar History Discussions