brahmins who converted to islam

Jul 2017
510
Sydney
#81
@Aupmanyav - good point above

People make a big deal out of this issue when in reality modern Hindu society isn't much affected by this

People do whatever job they like, marry wherever they like and untouchability is pretty much non existent
 
Sep 2012
8,755
India
#82
There is no long term strategy to eliminate castes in India. In stead the strategy seems to be the elimination of all forms of caste based discrimination. Caste system is vehemently justified in all Hindu holy texts, and remains an integral part of Hinduism. As a result, elimination of the castes in India could be achieved only by eliminating Hinduism itself.

Hindus of upper castes take much pride in their castes. They trumpet it or broadcast it hoping that others would treat them in high esteem because they were born so. One can actually see this behavior in this forum. Caste system is so ingrained in the Hindu psyche that it is almost impossible to get rid off.
Hinduism is a flexible religion and people are adapting themselves to modern practices of a casteless society. The first big blow to the caste system was given when the British opened up the subcontinent to a Railways system.In the crowded compartments all castes had to sit pushing against each other and there went the taboo of untouchability. As I have stated earlier, many social reformers helped remove many bad but deeply held malpractices like ' Sati', ban on widow remarriage, non-education of women, ban on travel beyond the sea and so on. I empasise that intercaste marriages are taking place in large numbers already. The older generation of the last few years of the 19th century, if brought back to life, will be amazed to see how Hindu Society in India has modernised itself. Hinduism is never going to die.
 

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,414
USA
#83
Hinduism is a flexible religion and people are adapting themselves to modern practices of a casteless society. The first big blow to the caste system was given when the British opened up the subcontinent to a Railways system.In the crowded compartments all castes had to sit pushing against each other and there went the taboo of untouchability. As I have stated earlier, many social reformers helped remove many bad but deeply held malpractices like ' Sati', ban on widow remarriage, non-education of women, ban on travel beyond the sea and so on. I empasise that intercaste marriages are taking place in large numbers already. The older generation of the last few years of the 19th century, if brought back to life, will be amazed to see how Hindu Society in India has modernised itself. Hinduism is never going to die.
The rate of change is very slow with Hinduism in India, albeit some horrible practices were stopped more than hundred years ago. Arranged marriages, which means marrying within the same caste, remains pretty much the norm, and the rest is very small. I would say the social progress in the Hindu world is comparable to that of the Muslim world. I would even say that the progress has digressed lately, as in the Muslim world, because of the resurgence of religion in politics. Hindus living in India may see all this differently.

Caste system is a characteristic of Hinduism as gravity is to the matter. So how does one get rid of one without the other? For example, take the case of Cambodia. Caste system was practiced fully during its glory centuries of the Khmer empire when its people were Hindu. Actually the biggest Hindu temple in the world is the Ankhor Wat in Cambodia (now a historic site). There is absolutely no caste system in Cambodia now. There is no Hinduism there either, it died out.

Then there is the Hindu island of Bali, where people have and practice the four fold caste system. They don't have arranged marriage system, but they seek out mates from the same caste to marry and continue to perpetuate the caste system. (Btw, I have been to both Cambodia and Bali and got a feel for all this too.)

One time I have recommended the following, worth trying, if Hindus are serious about eliminating the caste system:
1. Prohibit all caste related names
2. Open up priesthood to all castes
3. Prohibit Brahmins from becoming priests for 100 years
4. Prohibit Upper castes from keeping gotra (ancestry) records
5. Outlaw endogamous arranged marriages
6. Prohibit Low castes from performing unclean jobs
7. Prohibit the twice born sacred thread ritual
8. Cleanse all the Hindu holy books of caste references
9. Make selection criteria for entertainment and media talent based (and not on skin color or how Aryan one looks)
Caste System in India - History & Annihilation
 
Apr 2018
1,364
Mythical land.
#84
The rate of change is very slow with Hinduism in India, albeit some horrible practices were stopped more than hundred years ago. Arranged marriages, which means marrying within the same caste, remains pretty much the norm, and the rest is very small. I would say the social progress in the Hindu world is comparable to that of the Muslim world. I would even say that the progress has digressed lately, as in the Muslim world, because of the resurgence of religion in politics. Hindus living in India may see all this differently.

the difference is between urban and rural india,both of my sisters have had self-arranged marriage outside of caste,their friends and my friends too have married outside their own caste,while the marriage was certainly difficult it wasn't anything too away from the norm.
In rural areas caste seems to be the dominant factor not in urban areas with high literacy.
and "muslim world" is a misnomer with no meaning,which part of muslim dominated areas you talking about?nigeria or saudi,or south east asia or central asia??all of these regions have vastly different cultures from one another,some more progressive then india,some far far worse like saudi arabia.

Caste system is a characteristic of Hinduism as gravity is to the matter. So how does one get rid of one without the other? For example, take the case of Cambodia. Caste system was practiced fully during its glory centuries of the Khmer empire when its people were Hindu. Actually the biggest Hindu temple in the world is the Ankhor Wat in Cambodia (now a historic site). There is absolutely no caste system in Cambodia now. There is no Hinduism there either, it died out.
Cambodian caste system was more close to european class system then hindu caste system.

Then there is the Hindu island of Bali, where people have and practice the four fold caste system. They don't have arranged marriage system, but they seek out mates from the same caste to marry and continue to perpetuate the caste system. (Btw, I have been to both Cambodia and Bali and got a feel for all this too.)
False equivalency.
Bali caste system is nothing like hindu caste system,shudras form 90-95% of population and perform services of what brahmans were supposed to do,like chanting vedic mantras or being priests of temple.

One time I have recommended the following, worth trying, if Hindus are serious about eliminating the caste system:
1. Prohibit all caste related names
How do you think is this suggestion practical? how is reservation supposed to work then?how is government suppose to identify different social groups?

and what names,are you suggesting banning sirnames?and how would it solve the problem?and what about the problem of identity crisis that will be created due to this decision?

2. Open up priesthood to all castes
Done already.....

3. Prohibit Brahmins from becoming priests for 100 years
Contradicted your own 2nd point.....

4. Prohibit Upper castes from keeping gotra (ancestry) records
HARD to enforce but achievable,whats the point of doing this though?

5. Outlaw endogamous arranged marriages
This is non-sensical and will create more problems then it will ever solve.
your proposed solution is a diasaster for any working civilization,where do you suppose people will relocate in such a scenario?and how will they accomodate for it?

6. Prohibit Low castes from performing unclean jobs
Again non-sensical at best,prohibit 30% of work force from doing work simply because they were born into a family,what effect do you think it will have on the economy of the country?

7. Prohibit the twice born sacred thread ritual
8. Cleanse all the Hindu holy books of caste references
And how do you think these two are even achievable?
9. Make selection criteria for entertainment and media talent based (and not on skin color or how Aryan one looks)
Caste System in India - History & Annihilation
Tornada replied to this point in the thread quite efficiently.
 
Likes: Dewal
Jan 2019
71
Valencia
#85
the difference is between urban and rural india,both of my sisters have had self-arranged marriage outside of caste,their friends and my friends too have married outside their own caste,while the marriage was certainly difficult it wasn't anything too away from the norm.
In rural areas caste seems to be the dominant factor not in urban areas with high literacy.
and "muslim world" is a misnomer with no meaning,which part of muslim dominated areas you talking about?nigeria or saudi,or south east asia or central asia??all of these regions have vastly different cultures from one another,some more progressive then india,some far far worse like saudi arabia.



Cambodian caste system was more close to european class system then hindu caste system.



False equivalency.
Bali caste system is nothing like hindu caste system,shudras form 90-95% of population and perform services of what brahmans were supposed to do,like chanting vedic mantras or being priests of temple.



How do you think is this suggestion practical? how is reservation supposed to work then?how is government suppose to identify different social groups?

and what names,are you suggesting banning sirnames?and how would it solve the problem?and what about the problem of identity crisis that will be created due to this decision?


Done already.....



Contradicted your own 2nd point.....



HARD to enforce but achievable,whats the point of doing this though?


This is non-sensical and will create more problems then it will ever solve.
your proposed solution is a diasaster for any working civilization,where do you suppose people will relocate in such a scenario?and how will they accomodate for it?



Again non-sensical at best,prohibit 30% of work force from doing work simply because they were born into a family,what effect do you think it will have on the economy of the country?



And how do you think these two are even achievable?


Tornada replied to this point in the thread quite efficiently.
I think some of his points are very impractical like how does he expect to enforce these standards? But I understand the reasoning and respect it. From personal experience, I can tell you that if some of these were enforced, there would be riots on the streets. That's the sad reality.
 
Likes: Zanis

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,414
USA
#86
I think some of his points are very impractical like how does he expect to enforce these standards? But I understand the reasoning and respect it. From personal experience, I can tell you that if some of these were enforced, there would be riots on the streets. That's the sad reality.
That is the problem: How does one make the points practical? There is no easy way, but there is no other way either.

The current approach of eliminating caste discrimination while keeping the caste system, I am sure, won't work. Because as long as there are castes there will be discrimination. It is guaranteed. Also it is a singular approach. To eliminate something like caste system that is so entrenched in the Hindu culture, one needs multi prong approach, and be persistent with it.
 
Last edited:

kandal

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,414
USA
#87
the difference is between urban and rural india,both of my sisters have had self-arranged marriage outside of caste,their friends and my friends too have married outside their own caste,while the marriage was certainly difficult it wasn't anything too away from the norm.
In rural areas caste seems to be the dominant factor not in urban areas with high literacy.
and "muslim world" is a misnomer with no meaning,which part of muslim dominated areas you talking about?nigeria or saudi,or south east asia or central asia??all of these regions have vastly different cultures from one another,some more progressive then india,some far far worse like saudi arabia.



Cambodian caste system was more close to european class system then hindu caste system.



False equivalency.
Bali caste system is nothing like hindu caste system,shudras form 90-95% of population and perform services of what brahmans were supposed to do,like chanting vedic mantras or being priests of temple.



How do you think is this suggestion practical? how is reservation supposed to work then?how is government suppose to identify different social groups?

and what names,are you suggesting banning sirnames?and how would it solve the problem?and what about the problem of identity crisis that will be created due to this decision?


Done already.....



Contradicted your own 2nd point.....



HARD to enforce but achievable,whats the point of doing this though?


This is non-sensical and will create more problems then it will ever solve.
your proposed solution is a diasaster for any working civilization,where do you suppose people will relocate in such a scenario?and how will they accomodate for it?



Again non-sensical at best,prohibit 30% of work force from doing work simply because they were born into a family,what effect do you think it will have on the economy of the country?



And how do you think these two are even achievable?


Tornada replied to this point in the thread quite efficiently.
Real inter-caste marriages are so small in India, most likely less than even 5%. Many of these so called inter-caste marriages happen between two equal but different Jatis (sub-castes), so it is not real.

One doesn't even have to look beyond Pakistan for the 'Muslim world'. The country has digressed in many aspects in its progress towards modernity, so has India. This has happened because people have let religion into the politics. Add a stubborn culture resistant to changes also.

If India is serious about eliminating Hindu caste system, it should take the 'bull by the horns' and take serious steps. Trying to eliminate caste discrimination will not solve the problem, because it is the existence of caste system that produces the discrimination. Such efforts will only treat the symptoms, not the disease itself.
 

Aupmanyav

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
4,990
New Delhi, India
#88
The rate of change is very slow with Hinduism in India, albeit some horrible practices were stopped more than hundred years ago. Arranged marriages, which means marrying within the same caste, remains pretty much the norm, and the rest is very small.

Caste system is a characteristic of Hinduism as gravity is to the matter. So how does one get rid of one without the other?

Then there is the Hindu island of Bali, where people have and practice the four fold caste system. They don't have arranged marriage system, but they seek out mates from the same caste to marry and continue to perpetuate the caste system. (Btw, I have been to both Cambodia and Bali and got a feel for all this too.)

One time I have recommended the following, worth trying, if Hindus are serious about eliminating the caste system:
1. Prohibit all caste related names
2. Open up priesthood to all castes
3. Prohibit Brahmins from becoming priests for 100 years
4. Prohibit Upper castes from keeping gotra (ancestry) records
5. Outlaw endogamous arranged marriages
6. Prohibit Low castes from performing unclean jobs
7. Prohibit the twice born sacred thread ritual
8. Cleanse all the Hindu holy books of caste references
9. Make selection criteria for entertainment and media talent based (and not on skin color or how Aryan one looks)
Caste System in India - History & Annihilation
You mean all changes that took place, happened during the British/Christian rule and nothing has changed since then.
Yes, we will continue with arranged marriages. We (Hindus and Muslims alike) think it is better than going on dates with different people and getting ****** scores of time before saying yes to one, and then getting a divorce within five years and orphaning children. We do not think that is psychologically beneficial for anyone involved.

Don't the Western people have surnames? And the surnames indicate the profession of person's forefathers, like Butler, Smith, Shoemaker, etc. So we too have our surnames. What is wrong with that? What is necessary that there should be no discrimination. We have very strict laws against that including an immediate arrest on complaint. What a certain people (Cambodians in this case or any other) did or do is their own business. How we are concerned with that? They moved from Hinduism to Buddhism, which is a sister 'dharmic' religion. We respect Buddha and Buddhism, we take Buddha as the latest avatara of Lord Vishnu. It is a free world and everyone is entitled to his/her religious beliefs. We have no problem with Cambodians on that.Again, if Bali does not have an arranged marriage system, it is their own way and we are not concerned with that. (Nice that you have been around the world. What is the reason for mentioning that here? Do you think we care about that? My son also has been around the world and is presently in US. What has that to do with history?)

You are nothing but a bundle of Hindu-hate and a nuisance in a history forum. Is that what your religion has taught you? Answer to your nine suggestions is coming soon. Just wait for some time.
 
Apr 2018
1,364
Mythical land.
#89
Real inter-caste marriages are so small in India, most likely less than even 5%. Many of these so called inter-caste marriages happen between two equal but different Jatis (sub-castes), so it is not real.

One doesn't even have to look beyond Pakistan for the 'Muslim world'. The country has digressed in many aspects in its progress towards modernity, so has India. This has happened because people have let religion into the politics. Add a stubborn culture resistant to changes also.

If India is serious about eliminating Hindu caste system, it should take the 'bull by the horns' and take serious steps. Trying to eliminate caste discrimination will not solve the problem, because it is the existence of caste system that produces the discrimination. Such efforts will only treat the symptoms, not the disease itself.
And what is your source of this information of 5% at max?

So say pakistan not "muslim world" which includes all the places i have mentioned before, muslims are not homogenous.

India has already taken stern steps to remove caste, nonetheless the points you mentioned are either impractical or pointless and sometime even worse.
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#90
@Aupmanyav

"We (Hindus and Muslims alike) think it is better than going on dates with different people and getting ****** scores of time before saying yes to one, and then getting a divorce within five years and orphaning children. We do not think that is psychologically beneficial for anyone involved."

Well, that's fine for you, and you are entitled to your opinion. Arranged marriages are not norm in my country.

Here we have no fault divorce. This is seen as a good thing, as it allows unhappy /abusive marriages to be ended by either partner. There is no credible evidence that children in a one parent home are disadvantage. By definition, an 'orphan' is a child with no parents. Your claim about arranged marriages being superior is an opinion not supported by evidence .(at least in my country)_

How easy or difficult is it for a Hindu to get a divorce, especially a Hindu women

Although the government is trying to stamp out the practice, the triple Talaq divorce is still used by some Muslim communities. In Muslim divorce, the children usually go with the father.

I'm not so much anti Hindu as I am anti ANY religion.I believe religion to be the greatest confidence trick ever perpetrated on the human race. Thats all I have to say on this matter. I try very hard not to argue with apologists of any kind.d .
 

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