Brunei to expand use of Sharia law

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,202
Welsh Marches
#21
Please list a Bruneian death (ordered by the state or not)due to their leaving their faith. Just one case would make you believable.

Now....let's consider prominent Catholic nations: How is this applicable in the ancient war in Ireland and N. Ireland? Or Orthodox nations: pretty horrific costs of loss in Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and in rural Greece...I know persons NOW from all these areas......not a happy situation if you apostatize.
I am sure you know perfectly well that it is extraordinarily difficult for anyone in a majority Muslim country to abandon their Muslim faith, let alone convert to Christianity. Egyptians who convert do so at the risk of their lives, I have met such a family which had to seek refuge in Britain. Even here in England, we have had cases like that of Nissar Hussain and his family who has had to be placed under police protection and finally had to be rehoused in another town:

Are you going to tell me that any Muslim in Brunei is ever going openly admit to leaving the faith? And the more that sharia law is applied in any country, the more that Muslim society is going to become fossilized and stuck in the past. This really does have an effect outside such societies; many imams here in Britain will not directly state that stonings and amputations are an undesirable form of punishment. If pressed on the issue, they merely say that it is not an issue that arises within Britain. That is the point that I was making, I am sure that Brunei is not as bad as many Muslim countries.

Sure, there are problems arising from Christianity too. But no one anywhere is talking of applying a specifically Christian law-code on anyone; Christian societies are becoming more secular, while Muslim societies are moving the opposite direction. In Northern Ireland religion is a political marker, not the cause of the conflict. It is absurd to suppose that anyone has any trouble declaring himself to being an atheist or changing over to another denomination; but is exceedingly unlikely that anyone in a working class area of Belfast would change in either direction because of the cultural factor.

Here is a 'moderate' statement of the Muslim view of apostasy from an Imam in the West:


Perhaps you could tell us what sharia law lays down about the issue in Brunei?
 
Last edited:
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
#22
So you are claiming that Brunei is like radical Muslims in Britain? Amazing....You have been here? Probably not. You saw my evidence of non-Muslims in critical civil court positions? You have pushed aside my actual non-theoretical hands on experience here to your views of radicals there.....tsk tsk tsk....very broad brush thinking.

You ignore that facts I have offered and seem not to understand that radical Islam is ALSO political, just like the Irish problem is...or I guess you think the big Palestine land question is something else ....and to suggest that the crazies in Britain are like Bruneians shows real lack of experience.

I am not interested in the troubles you are having in Britain, or I would have explored that; the topic is Brunei, not Brixton, Bromely or Baghdad.
 
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
#24
Also....you are confusing Wahhabism and Taliban extremism with moderate Muslim countries. Protest the Saudi Government, the Taliban infested backwaters of Afghanistan and Pakistan...where most of your British extremists hail from about capital punishment.

I don't think an historian, whose nation only ended capital punishment in 1964 can brag too much about being less fossilized then Brunei.....53 years is nothing in the long line of criminal punishment in Britain.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,202
Welsh Marches
#25
So you are claiming that Brunei is like radical Muslims in Britain? Amazing....You have been here? Probably not. You saw my evidence of non-Muslims in critical civil court positions? You have pushed aside my actual non-theoretical hands on experience here to your views of radicals there.....tsk tsk tsk....very broad brush thinking.

You ignore that facts I have offered and seem not to understand that radical Islam is ALSO political, just like the Irish problem is...or I guess you think the big Palestine land question is something else ....and to suggest that the crazies in Britain are like Bruneians shows real lack of experience.

I am not interested in the troubles you are having in Britain, or I would have explored that; the topic is Brunei, not Brixton, Bromely or Baghdad.
I did not actually claim anything about the specific situation in Brunei, I was merely remarking as a general point that when people say that sharia law only affects Muslims, it also serves as a form of social control that prevents any development within Muslim society, and prevents any individual from being able to break away from it.

It was you who brought up the Irish (and Balkan) parallel, not me, and I was merely pointing out how inept it is. And the contrast that you try to draw between 'radical' Islam as being political and apparently non-radical Bruneian Islam is meaningless, because Islam is inherently political and does recognize a separation between state and religion. That is the whole point of introducing sharia law, which is a form of religious law based on what is laid down in the Koran and hadith. Of course the form of sharia may may vary in different countries, and may be more or less 'radical', but it is still religious law based on unquestionable and unalterable scriptures. There is nothing comparable within the Christian world nowadays. Politicians may seek to have laws that reflect Christian values, but no one at all is suggesting that there should be a law code directly based on scripture! As soon as you have such a law-code, the legal system becomes fossilized, because it is difficult if not impossible to question anything that is laid down in scripture. The whole point of theocracy is that God rules, not men.
 
Last edited:

Willempie

Ad Honorem
Jul 2015
5,206
Netherlands
#27
So you are claiming that Brunei is like radical Muslims in Britain? Amazing....You have been here? Probably not. You saw my evidence of non-Muslims in critical civil court positions? You have pushed aside my actual non-theoretical hands on experience here to your views of radicals there.....tsk tsk tsk....very broad brush thinking.

You ignore that facts I have offered and seem not to understand that radical Islam is ALSO political, just like the Irish problem is...or I guess you think the big Palestine land question is something else ....and to suggest that the crazies in Britain are like Bruneians shows real lack of experience.

I am not interested in the troubles you are having in Britain, or I would have explored that; the topic is Brunei, not Brixton, Bromely or Baghdad.
So is or is not Christmas in public banned?
So is or is not Chinese new year celebrations in public banned?
So is or is not wearing a Santa costume in public banned?
So is or is not eating during ramadan in public banned?
Etc.

And as you well know the part with death penalties isn't implemented yet, I think they are still at the stage of implementing the physical punishments.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,202
Welsh Marches
#28
Also....you are confusing Wahhabism and Taliban extremism with moderate Muslim countries. Protest the Saudi Government, the Taliban infested backwaters of Afghanistan and Pakistan...where most of your British extremists hail from about capital punishment.

I don't think an historian, whose nation only ended capital punishment in 1964 can brag too much about being less fossilized then Brunei.....53 years is nothing in the long line of criminal punishment in Britain.
You missed the point, the difference between sharia law is that it is based on scriptural authority, i.e. the supposed word of God which has been laid down forever, rather than on rational discussion in which outdated views can always be amended; and the whole point of introducing it is to ensure that change is kept at bay. If the Koran lays down that disobedient wives can be beaten, how is a mere man to gainsay that? There are of course all kinds of problems with sharia, because of the uncertain status of many of the hadith. "If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he shall be stoned to death" comes from the hadith rather than the Koran, so perhaps a nice civilized place like Brunei will not be stoning homosexuals. When you start on this route, however, an accept the principle that a law-code should be directly based on scripture, it is the people who would try to avoid such extremes who are placed in a defensive position. Over 50% of British Muslims think that homosexuals should be prosecuted, not because they happen to be freakish Islamists or radicals, but because they are following their scriptures.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,202
Welsh Marches
#29
So there will in fact be stoning for sodomy (and also adultery), but not quite yet:

"The initial phase beginning on Thursday introduces fines or jail terms for offences ranging from indecent behaviour, failure to attend Friday prayers, and out-of-wedlock pregnancies.

A second phase covering crimes such as theft and robbery is to be implemented later this year, involving more stringent penalties such as severing of limbs and flogging.

Late next year, punishments such as death by stoning for offences including sodomy and adultery will be introduced."

from the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/30/sultan-brunei-sharia-penal-code-flogging-death-stoning
 
Oct 2007
8,434
Borneo~ that big Island in S.E. ASIA
#30
So is or is not Christmas in public banned?
So is or is not Chinese new year celebrations in public banned?
So is or is not wearing a Santa costume in public banned?
So is or is not eating during ramadan in public banned?
Etc.

And as you well know the part with death penalties isn't implemented yet, I think they are still at the stage of implementing the physical punishments.
The first year non-Muslim public (street, businesses, in shop) promotions were
banned....each year it gets less rigid.

One must consider: only a tiny % of the country is Christian, and most from Christian nation who work here worship (though admittedly most are agnostic or atheist) in the 4 churches in the country or have meetings at home, allowed by law and the constitution.

Santa Claus may seem silly to you, and no Muslim thinks of converting because of Jolly St Nick. However....it is a Christian symbol to non-Christians.

Eating publicly is rude and selfish to those fighting the Ramadan fasting woes; all shops just offer take-aways, so no big deal to an accommodating and well paid foreign worker.


Personally, after studying the laws, and the very high requirements for 4 "impeccable witnesses" of any crime by a Muslim, and the very fact that it is outlined that if anyone falsely accuses someone (very common worldwide) here it is declared that the false witness "shall suffer the punishments of the innocent accused". Also all accusers (must be 4) must appear in court cannot cry "witness protection" and must go through the entire judgement process.

So....I see, since Brunei has still kept it's British Court system for most criminal, the Sharia court system covers moral and religious crimes not considered important to the secular system.

I doubt capital punishment will be implemented, and certainly not for non-Muslims, as it's much simpler to cancel their fat contracts and send them back to their own country.