Bullsh*t jobs

Jan 2019
130
USA
#61
Depends... If your job is to feed the horses, but for any reason there are no longer any horses (they all died or were sold), no one is doing that task and no one's job is made harder... In fact the guy whose job was to clean horse manure, also now has nothing to do... As does the guy who was supposed to look after the horses health... And all 3 of you might have a vested interest in continuing to pretend there are horses around (the pay is good, the hours are good, there is no pressure and your house is nearby).... While your manager, who gets paid based on his headcount or perhaps on the number of tasks under his supervision has no interest in firing you, cause then his compensation would decrease.....
This is obviously a simplified image.... In real life its more complex, but there are plenty of similar examples... which is why cost reduction exercises carried out in companies often result in 20% or more savings... at least half of which are elimination of unneeded positions.
I don't believe the book is centered around the fiscal motivation in purging unnecessary payroll. The description of the book reads..

"From bestselling writer David Graeber, a powerful argument against the rise of meaningless, unfulfilling jobs, and their consequences.

Does your job make a meaningful contribution to the world? In the spring of 2013, David Graeber asked this question in a playful, provocative essay titled “On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs.” It went viral. After a million online views in seventeen different languages, people all over the world are still debating the answer.

There are millions of people—HR consultants, communication coordinators, telemarketing researchers, corporate lawyers—whose jobs are useless, and, tragically, they know it. These people are caught in bullshit jobs.

Graeber explores one of society’s most vexing and deeply felt concerns, indicting among other villains a particular strain of finance capitalism that betrays ideals shared by thinkers ranging from Keynes to Lincoln. Bullshit Jobs gives individuals, corporations, and societies permission to undergo a shift in values, placing creative and caring work at the center of our culture. This book is for everyone who wants to turn their vocation back into an avocation"

Does that sound like a description that is going to give you an analysis of unnecessary payroll in the workplace? I believe that is what your argument is insinuating. Jobs that were once necessary become unnecessary. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. That isn't the discussion the author is trying to bring forth though.
 
Jul 2016
8,959
USA
#62
Depends... If your job is to feed the horses, but for any reason there are no longer any horses (they all died or were sold), no one is doing that task and no one's job is made harder... In fact the guy whose job was to clean horse manure, also now has nothing to do... As does the guy who was supposed to look after the horses health... And all 3 of you might have a vested interest in continuing to pretend there are horses around (the pay is good, the hours are good, there is no pressure and your house is nearby).... While your manager, who gets paid based on his headcount or perhaps on the number of tasks under his supervision has no interest in firing you, cause then his compensation would decrease.....
This is obviously a simplified image.... In real life its more complex, but there are plenty of similar examples... which is why cost reduction exercises carried out in companies often result in 20% or more savings... at least half of which are elimination of unneeded positions.
If my job is to feed horses that don't exist it doesn't mean horse feeder is a BS job. It means the person who pays me is an idiot and gets fleeced because they have no business being in the position they are in.

If I work at a restaurant on the wait staff I can perform the old "double drop" routine, where I use the same check for different tables if I know they are paying cash. And then I pocket the cash. With poor management, this type of scam and many others are so common place that restaurants routinely go out of business. But does stealing from an employer that isnt' paying attention makes my job as a waiter a BS job? No.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,223
#64
If my job is to feed horses that don't exist it doesn't mean horse feeder is a BS job. It means the person who pays me is an idiot and gets fleeced because they have no business being in the position they are in.

If I work at a restaurant on the wait staff I can perform the old "double drop" routine, where I use the same check for different tables if I know they are paying cash. And then I pocket the cash. With poor management, this type of scam and many others are so common place that restaurants routinely go out of business. But does stealing from an employer that isnt' paying attention makes my job as a waiter a BS job? No.
No, that's why I am saying that - in my opinion- its about positions , not professions... A position (horse feeder) might be useless in one company and critical in another.... As for not knowing the horses are gone , it may be obvious when talking about horses (although even then, not necesarily so:
The U.S. Army Lost Track of 27 Ballistic Missiles

For 30 years starting in 1962, the U.S. Army deployed Lance ballistic missiles in Europe to deter Soviet attack. Twenty feet long and weighing a ton and a half, an atomic-tipped Lance could zoom 75 miles at Mach 3 and explode with a force of up to 100 kilotons of TNT.
The Army retired its last Lances in 1992 … and ultimately lost track of 27 of them at Redstone Arsenal in Alabama, according to WAAY T.V.:

[Aviation and Missile Life Cycle Management Command] officials say they did not even know the missiles were on post, stored inside igloos on the south side of the arsenal, until AMCOM did a thorough counting of all weapons in 2014. That’s when the missiles were discovered.
)

but much less obvious when talking about small tasks in complex companies which have thousands or tens of thousands+ of tasks happening simultaneously... Do you know that , despite all of their advanced IT systems and even though money is the most important single item for any bank, not a single bank can tell you how much money they have at a given point (at best they can tell you how much they had, say one month ago when the auditors finished their auditing)... So large companies cant really be expected to keep real time tabs on their tasks/positions....

More on the "double drop" scam please..... I am always interested in scams, but I dont understand how this one works
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,223
#65
I don't believe the book is centered around the fiscal motivation in purging unnecessary payroll. The description of the book reads..

"From bestselling writer David Graeber, a powerful argument against the rise of meaningless, unfulfilling jobs, and their consequences.

Does your job make a meaningful contribution to the world? In the spring of 2013, David Graeber asked this question in a playful, provocative essay titled “On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs.” It went viral. After a million online views in seventeen different languages, people all over the world are still debating the answer.

There are millions of people—HR consultants, communication coordinators, telemarketing researchers, corporate lawyers—whose jobs are useless, and, tragically, they know it. These people are caught in bullshit jobs.

Graeber explores one of society’s most vexing and deeply felt concerns, indicting among other villains a particular strain of finance capitalism that betrays ideals shared by thinkers ranging from Keynes to Lincoln. Bullshit Jobs gives individuals, corporations, and societies permission to undergo a shift in values, placing creative and caring work at the center of our culture. This book is for everyone who wants to turn their vocation back into an avocation"

Does that sound like a description that is going to give you an analysis of unnecessary payroll in the workplace? I believe that is what your argument is insinuating. Jobs that were once necessary become unnecessary. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. That isn't the discussion the author is trying to bring forth though.
You are right but we dont necessarily need to "go by the book"... Rather I am interested to see if some of the concepts have merit or can be adapted/corrected to be used in meaningful ways...
 
Sep 2017
695
United States
#66
By discussing this turd's ideas we're giving him publicity, helping his book sell, designed to destroy my country, and helping Mr. Socialist Activist make money. Nope. That's bad. That's empowering bad behavior. That's like giving free condoms to serial rapists, or giving shooting lessons to cartel gunmen. Its the complete opposite of what is supposed to happen.
If that is true, then you should cease all discussion on the topic and not make an effort to counter him, no?

Also, I don't think talking about his book on Historum is going to make him money and give him fame. I couldn't see a single person on this site buying the book because they saw the topic. And, if they read through the topic, then it is up to people like you to make convincing and smart counterarguments that put down his idea and demonstrate why they should not only not endorse him but actively switch to your viewpoint.
 
Jul 2016
8,959
USA
#67
More on the "double drop" scam please..... I am always interested in scams, but I dont understand how this one works
Doesn't work if one pays with CC or debit, only cash. Doesn't work with new electronic means of ordering food (which is why food service have automated that stuff). And doesn't work if customers actually looking at their check/ticket. Best used with large groups who are drunk.

Table 1 racks up a large tab of food and beverages, pays with cash. Cash from that is put in the register with receipt but check isn't tossed. That check is reused and then dropped on Table 2, but only asking if they are paying cash or CC. They don't study the check, don't care, too drunk or preoccupied yapping, they all toss in cash and leave to get DUIs on their drive home. Waiter pockets cash, since there is no record. Their original check for Table 2 is thrown out, so only way to know order even existing it is to know how much food was being used. But kitchens are black holes. Between normal wastage and employees robbing them blind (stealing food is so common its SOP), that isn't realistic. Only way to know its happening is shift managers catching it and firing waiters or bartenders double dropping. But a lot of times they're running their own scams too (selling food in bulk from kitchen out the back door to other restaurants). Or just don't care. Or just bad at their jobs.
 
Jul 2016
8,959
USA
#68
If that is true, then you should cease all discussion on the topic and not make an effort to counter him, no?

Also, I don't think talking about his book on Historum is going to make him money and give him fame. I couldn't see a single person on this site buying the book because they saw the topic. And, if they read through the topic, then it is up to people like you to make convincing and smart counterarguments that put down his idea and demonstrate why they should not only not endorse him but actively switch to your viewpoint.
Any publicity is free publicity. In this case its giving money and encouragement to someone who wants to utterly destroy western society to create just one more socialist distopia because he believes in his death cult. No thanks. If you want to pursue it, that's your choice. But its a bad choice.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,223
#69
Doesn't work if one pays with CC or debit, only cash. Doesn't work with new electronic means of ordering food (which is why food service have automated that stuff). And doesn't work if customers actually looking at their check/ticket. Best used with large groups who are drunk.

Table 1 racks up a large tab of food and beverages, pays with cash. Cash from that is put in the register with receipt but check isn't tossed. That check is reused and then dropped on Table 2, but only asking if they are paying cash or CC. They don't study the check, don't care, too drunk or preoccupied yapping, they all toss in cash and leave to get DUIs on their drive home. Waiter pockets cash, since there is no record. Their original check for Table 2 is thrown out, so only way to know order even existing it is to know how much food was being used. But kitchens are black holes. Between normal wastage and employees robbing them blind (stealing food is so common its SOP), that isn't realistic. Only way to know its happening is shift managers catching it and firing waiters or bartenders double dropping. But a lot of times they're running their own scams too (selling food in bulk from kitchen out the back door to other restaurants). Or just don't care. Or just bad at their jobs.
OK

What happens if customers actually check, or realize the amount is too high for what they ordered ?
 
Sep 2017
695
United States
#70
Any publicity is free publicity. In this case its giving money and encouragement to someone who wants to utterly destroy western society to create just one more socialist distopia because he believes in his death cult. No thanks. If you want to pursue it, that's your choice. But its a bad choice.
If that is true, then you are actively helping him and pursuing it by continuing to argue on this thread and debate the topic.

You have a chance now to convince those who might otherwise agree with him that they are wrong, and should take this opportunity to put forth why his premise is flawed and counter anyone who is inclined to agree with him.
 

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