Can anyone tell me in detail about battle ships of Ming and Japan?

May 2015
151
Hanam city, Korea
#1
1.Did Ming navy use cannon in naval battles(during Imjin war)? If they used, did they use culverin(紅夷砲)? and how many did they use?
2. How exactly fast was Sekibune and Atakebune(in note)? I know they were faster than Panokseon.
 
Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
#2
Yes they indeed used naval cannons during that time, but they didn't use culverin, since culverin was introduced to China during the 17th century.

In 16th century Ming ships mostly relied on breech-loading Folangji guns as well as cup-shaped muzzle and crouching tiger mortars. They also used some rockets on their ships.

Folangji breech-loader



Zhankou (cup-shaped muzzle) mortar



Hudun (crouching tiger) mortar



And they also used something like this on land, an iron cannon with reinforcement hoops on its barrel. These cannons were usually named as great general, second general, or third general depending on their size. I'm not sure if they were also used on ships.



It was recorded that a typical Ming Fuchuan junk was usually mounted with one large cannon (probably the generals type) and a few supporting mortars or breech-loaders. In terms of armaments they were indeed behind European ships, but sufficient to deal with other East Asian ships.
 
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May 2015
151
Hanam city, Korea
#3
Yes they indeed used naval cannons during that time, but they didn't use culverin, since culverin was introduced to China during the 17th century.

In 16th century Ming ships mostly relied on breech-loading Folangji guns as well as cup-shaped muzzle and crouching tiger mortars. They also used some rockets on their ships.

Folangji breech-loader



Zhankou (cup-shaped muzzle) mortar



Hudun (crouching tiger) mortar



And they also used something like this on land, an iron cannon with reinforcement hoops on its barrel. These cannons were usually named as great general, second general, or third general depending on their size. I'm not sure if they were also used on ships.



It was recorded that a typical Ming Fuchuan junk was usually mounted with one large cannon (probably the generals type) and a few supporting mortars or breech-loaders. In terms of armaments they were indeed behind European ships, but sufficient to deal with other East Asian ships.
What kind of woods were used for battle ships? and I heard that Ming battle ships were smaller than Japanese battle ships(I don't know it means Atake or sekibune).
 

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,767
United States
#4
1.Did Ming navy use cannon in naval battles(during Imjin war)? If they used, did they use culverin(紅夷砲)? and how many did they use?
2. How exactly fast was Sekibune and Atakebune(in note)? I know they were faster than Panokseon.
Here is a thread about Japanese ships:
http://historum.com/asian-history/88841-japanese-sengoku-era-warships.html

Here's a blog post that should be helpful:
http://greatmingmilitary.blogspot.com/2015/07/mingdynastynavycomparison.html
 
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Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
#5
What kind of woods were used for battle ships? and I heard that Ming battle ships were smaller than Japanese battle ships(I don't know it means Atake or sekibune).
They were mostly made out of camphorwood, pine, and China fir.

It depends on what type of Ming ship you're talking about. The Ming used a variety of ships, including many medium and small ships. But their Fuchuan ships were quite large, the largest ones measured around 30 meters in length. I don't think the Japanese ships were larger than that.

The Fuchuan were equipped with one Fagong cannon (Falcao/Falcon), six large Folangji (Frankish) breech-loading guns, three cup-shaped mortars, and numerous other firearms such as rockets, muskets, flame bombs, and firelances.

And it's not like that the small ships were ineffective. Both the Portuguese and the Dutch were defeated by smaller Ming fire ships.
 
May 2015
151
Hanam city, Korea
#6
May 2015
151
Hanam city, Korea
#7
They were mostly made out of camphorwood, pine, and China fir.

It depends on what type of Ming ship you're talking about. The Ming used a variety of ships, including many medium and small ships. But their Fuchuan ships were quite large, the largest ones measured around 30 meters in length. I don't think the Japanese ships were larger than that.

The Fuchuan were equipped with one Fagong cannon (Falcao/Falcon), six large Folangji (Frankish) breech-loading guns, three cup-shaped mortars, and numerous other firearms such as rockets, muskets, flame bombs, and firelances.

And it's not like that the small ships were ineffective. Both the Portuguese and the Dutch were defeated by smaller Ming fire ships.
Ok, I noticed that casualties of Ming navy was bigger than Joseon navy in battle of Noryang, despite their smaller number than Joseon navy(The number of Joseon-Ming united navy army at battle of Noryang was 83 ships for Joseon, and 63 ships for Ming). So I thought Ming battle ships were smaller than Japanese one, that's why it caused many casualties for Ming. I guess Ming navy army mobilized middle ones in the battle. BTW Fuchuan wasn't main power wasn't it? Maybe positions similar with Atakebune(Atakebune used some cannons but main power was still Sekibune).
 
Dec 2011
3,492
Mountains and Jungles of Southern China
#10
Ok, I noticed that casualties of Ming navy was bigger than Joseon navy in battle of Noryang, despite their smaller number than Joseon navy(The number of Joseon-Ming united navy army at battle of Noryang was 83 ships for Joseon, and 63 ships for Ming). So I thought Ming battle ships were smaller than Japanese one, that's why it caused many casualties for Ming. I guess Ming navy army mobilized middle ones in the battle. BTW Fuchuan wasn't main power wasn't it? Maybe positions similar with Atakebune(Atakebune used some cannons but main power was still Sekibune).
Yes Fuchuan was the main power of the Ming navy. They had various types of Fuchuan, and plus many medium and small ships.

Even someone as cautious as Qi Jiguang (a famous Ming general known for his treatises on training and weapons) mentioned that Fuchuan would overrun any Wokou's ship and that the later is only equivalent to a medium-sized Ming ship.

From what I heard, the Ming indeed built a few Fuchuan for the Imjin War, but the war finished before those were completed. The ships they used during the war were mostly medium ships.

And plus, one battle cannot prove everything. The Ming wasn't fighting on their home territory, and apparently they didn't send all they got to Korea, since they were fighting other wars at around the same time.