Can Wealth exist without poverty ?

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,136
Sydney
#41
people don't like work , that's why you have to pay them
on phylantropy one of my all time favorite is Will Keith Kellogg
an all round do-gooder founder of a multinational with a conscience
 
Aug 2018
368
london
#42
" But wealth can't exist without work, "

Ever heard of inherited wealth?
Inherited wealth is the result of past work and a claim on other people's work.

I didn't mean that all the wealth rich people have is result of their own work. I was merely pointing out that the production of wealth requires work. Some robber baron might pocket it whilst workers get shafted but that's another matter.
 
Likes: bboomer
Nov 2010
1,254
Bordeaux
#43
Inherited wealth is the result of past work and a claim on other people's work.

I didn't mean that all the wealth rich people have is result of their own work. I was merely pointing out that the production of wealth requires work. Some robber baron might pocket it whilst workers get shafted but that's another matter.
Today's shift in paradigm within capitalism is that the production of wealth no longer requires work or any kind of production.
Or rather, the increasingly unsustainable imbalance between wealth created from real work/production and wealth created from thin air, either through bonkers amount of public/private credit or stock speculation.
 
Oct 2013
1,294
Monza, Italy
#45
What do you mean ?
Sorry if it wasn't very much clear, I just think that you can consider Sweden and Norwey like societies where a very solid bourgeois doesn't necessary live on the poor and exploited back to guarantee a general good economy. Of course there are unique features about those nations we should consdier, that's true...
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
13,150
#46
Sorry if it wasn't very much clear, I just think that you can consider Sweden and Norwey like societies where a very solid bourgeois doesn't necessary live on the poor and exploited back to guarantee a general good economy. Of course there are unique features about those nations we should consdier, that's true...
Well the main thing is that Norway is sitting on a sea of oil that's generated already $1 trillion of reserves for a population of about 5 mio only... In that sense they are similar to the small gulf states , where there is also no poverty (at least not for locals)

Sweden has double the population but has also large reserves of the best Iron in Europe (which during WW2 covered about half of nazi Germany's iron needs).... and of course almost unlimited wood

Based on this galore of resources I am quite skeptical of these "models"... Its like saying that Dubai or Qatar have great models
 
Oct 2013
1,294
Monza, Italy
#47
Well the main thing is that Norway is sitting on a sea of oil that's generated already $1 trillion of reserves for a population of about 5 mio only... In that sense they are similar to the small gulf states , where there is also no poverty (at least not for locals)

Sweden has double the population but has also large reserves of the best Iron in Europe (which during WW2 covered about half of nazi Germany's iron needs).... and of course almost unlimited wood

Based on this galore of resources I am quite skeptical of these "models"... Its like saying that Dubai or Qatar have great models
That's right about Scandinavian societies and I recognize you are right, yet I stick to the idea that capitalism doesn't need poor people to let rich people live over the average and it'no zero sum; even by a Marxist point of view, capitalism needs exploitation, not poorness. It's a proven fact that 100% of the population live better today than in pre-Industrial and pre-capitalist world.
 
Oct 2013
1,294
Monza, Italy
#49
Sweden and Finland were ravaged by famine in the late 1860ies ,thousands emigrated to America rather than starve
Swedish famine of 1867–1869 - Wikipedia
A Norwegian told me of life before the oil in his father time , it was hard and poor , both in the cities and the countryside ,
When I referred to Scandinavian societies as a model of capitalism mixed with a solid welfare and a sort of socialist system here and there I wasn't talking of Scandinavian societies as Scandinavian but as a the typical example of social-democracy, which they were since the '40s circa and not for sure in the XIX century.
 
Nov 2018
188
Denmark
#50
Denmark does not have any natural reserves, except agricultural land and the sea around Denmark.

And as far as agriculture is concerned, the climate is against us, because the sun shines too little and the grain therefore has no great content of gluten, as opposed to for example, the American prairies where the grain quality outperformed the Danish grain already in the 1800s.

The Danish farmers therefore had to think new and began to refine the animal products, butter and bacon to name the best known. Carlsberg was founded in 1847 and created a much better product of the grain than bread.
In order to enhance production capacity, cooperative slaughterhouses and dairies were set up. In addition, cooperative purchasing associations so farmers would not have to pay overprice for daily necessities and the profits were used to improve associations.

All of this created a strong farmer class.

The workers' struggle began in the 1870s, where they established trade unions and the Social Democratic Party was established in 1878.

By the way, it was 5 May 1872 that "the Battle of the Field” was fought. The only fight between police, soldiers, and workers who have been fought in Denmark. A lot of wounded and no dead.
Despite the employers 'opposition, workers' conditions were gradually improved.

But the foundation of the modern Danish welfare state was started the night between 29 and 30 January 1933. The so-called Chancellor Street (Kanslergade) deal, the name is due to fact that the deal was made in Kanslergade 10, the home of the Social Democratic Prime Minister Thorvald Stauning.

The reason was that Denmark had serious financial concerns. Prices for agricultural products had fallen dramatically on the world market, which created great hardship for farmers and the labor they had attached.

In the cities, unemployment was as high as 30% the employers used it by recent collective bargaining between employers' association and trade unions to demand that the workers go down 20% in wages. The Trade unions had refused to agree. Subsequently the employers announced the lockout of 100,000 workers.

This would have serious consequences for the Danish economy.

This led the prime minister to convene a meeting between representatives of the Social Democracy (the workers' party) the Radical Left (the smallholders' party) and the Left (farmers’ party).

The participants of the deal ensured especially the interests of the peasants and workers.

The negotiations took 18 hours and some camels were swallowed. However, as Thorvald Stauning later said "We waived some principles, but we saved the country."

To help exports, the krone was devalued by 10%, agricultural interest rates were reduced and subsidies were given for the slaughter of cattle and for a reduction in pig production in order to increase the price of agricultural products.

Public works were started to help the workers. In addition, loans were introduced for house building. Lockouts and strikes, however, were banned to avert labor market instability.

Similarly, the completel social legislation was modernized and simplified, and went from being alms based to be based on rights. At the time, the motto was "Know your rights, but do your duty"

Nowadays many people have forgot their duty, and only remember the right. Something that in the near future will bring the welfare state to its knees.

The consequences of the deal were that the state was also seen as an active initiator of the socio-economic development.
Among other things, by launching public works that provided jobs and trade. Together with the social reform, these initiatives are often seen as the beginning of the Danish welfare state.

At the same time, a tradition was started in Danish politics for compromise between ideologically different parties.

And finally, I would like to state that Denmark is not a socialist state and never will be. As descendants of farmers we are fierce supporters of private property.
 
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Likes: sparky